Eddard Stark represents the sheeple?

[MyLittleDirewolf]

Nice I would like to take it to the next step and say the wolf(Ned) leads the sheep(Fans) to their doom.

I just think its really Ironic that Fans of Ned seem to hate Jamie, when they are actually quit similar in a-lot of ways.

Err... I have a Jaime quote in my signature. Jaime is one of my favorite characters too, as is Bran, even though Jaime tried to kill him.

[AchillesReborn]

I'm a fan of Ned but I also like Jaime.

Jeez you people hound me over the smallest details.

[Winterfellian]

Ned was moral and honorable, but he did everything by the word of the law. He doesn't really think for himself at all, he just seems to follow all the rules. Everyone knew the mad king was mad, but he holds a grudge against Jamie Lannister for killing him. Not because Jamie was doing the wrong thing morally speaking, but because Jamie broke the rules. In Ned's eyes breaking the rules is doing the wrong thing, obviously he doesn't understand conditions of circumstance and therefor I beleive he is stupid.

Well said! Truly spoken like someone who has only the tv show to judge :rolleyes:

[King of Winters]

Jeez you people hound me over the smallest details.

I'm just saying. Most people like Jaime after his redemded himself.

[AchillesReborn]

I'm reading the books.

Back on topic, Eddard Stark represents the sheeple?

I'm going to elaborate on the meaning of this question, to try and clear up any confusion.

In the first book Eddard Stark was written as the main character. Then he died, to prove that this story doesn't revolve around the life of one individual. The story kept going on without him, and GRRM killed the main character to show no-one is safe. He titled the book A Game of Thrones, and wrote it from many POVs. I beleive he did this so we would choose a character to be the new main character after Eddard dies. Eddard represents the sheeple in the sense that all of his fan base, are those who like the idea of the main character vs the bad guys. The basic outline of most stories.

[MyLittleDirewolf]

:agree: That's my problem, why do people continue to hate Jamie, but love Ned?

Well, Ned never banged his sister. He also didn't push a little boy out the window to cover up for said banging. So, there's that. I think most people though do like Jaime, post-redemption. I have had a lot of trouble getting past the pushing Bran out the window though.

[AchillesReborn]

Well, Ned never banged his sister. He also didn't push a little boy out the window to cover up for said banging. So, there's that. I think most people though do like Jaime, post-redemption. I have had a lot of trouble getting past the pushing Bran out the window though.

But this is a great portrayal of reality, everyone is good and bad. Some are just more righteous(good out-weights the bad). No one in this world is perfect we all make mistakes, just like the characters in westeros. I think if you can learn anything from this series of books its forgiveness.

I think that killing the mad king, for the reasons he killed him, out-weights the fact that he pushed a kid out of a window to save his own ass. I mean he did have to live with the title kingslayer, and all the hate that came with it, for a very long time.

I'll admit the twincest is quit disgusting but it is a interesting thing you only get to hear about in a crazy fantasy world.

[Wanderer]

Here we go again.............

Immorality compounds immorality. Ned, and most people with any shred of honor understand that rules and law are not constructs to be bent for your purpose or ignored at will and convenience. They are the foundations of our civilization. If we all behaved like those in KL this world would go to pot over night. All this plotting and scheming isn't the hallmark of genius. It is a symptom of a civilization in steep decline and a byproduct of weakness. I personally hate it when people perform mental gymnastics trying to justify immoral behavior. It smacks of mental laziness and ignorance. Calling it intelligent is just downright idiotic.

[AchillesReborn]

Here we go again.............

Immorality compounds immorality. Ned, and most people with any shred of honor understand that rules and law are not constructs to be bent for your purpose or ignored at will and convenience. They are the foundations of our civilization. If we all behaved like those in KL this world would go to pot over night. All this plotting and scheming isn't the hallmark of genius. It is a symptom of a civilization in steep decline and a byproduct of weakness. I personally hate it when people perform mental gymnastics trying to justify immoral behavior. It smacks of mental laziness and ignorance. Calling it intelligent is just downright idiotic.

So you would say that Jamie killing the mad king wasn’t justified?

I know its a cliche but "Rules were made to be broken."

[SilentSense]

But this is a great portrayal of reality, everyone is good and bad. Some are just more righteous(good out-weights the bad). No one in this world is perfect we all make mistakes, just like the characters in westeros. I think if you can learn anything from this series of books its forgiveness.

I think that killing the mad king, for the reasons he killed him, out-weights the fact that he pushed a kid out of a window to save his own ass. I mean he did have to live with the title kingslayer, and all the hate that came with it, for a very long time.

I'll admit the twincest is quit disgusting but it is a interesting thing you only get to hear about in a crazy fantasy world.

Borderline incoherent. 3/10

[Wanderer]

I'm reading the books.

Back on topic, Eddard Stark represents the sheeple?

I'm going to elaborate on the meaning of this question, to try and clear up any confusion.

In the first book Eddard Stark was written as the main character. Then he died, to prove that this story doesn't revolve around the life of one individual. The story kept going on without him, and GRRM killed the main character to show no-one is safe. He titled the book A Game of Thrones, and wrote it from many POVs. I beleive he did this so we would choose a character to be the new main character after Eddard dies. Eddard represents the sheeple in the sense that all of his fan base, are those who like the idea of the main character vs the bad guys. The basic outline of most stories.

So because most people like morality and the rule of law, Ned represents the "sheeple"? It sounds to me like he is a man of common sense.

I don't think GRRM is trying to say that at all. I think he's trying to show how tenuous the rule of law is, and all the suffering that ensues when it leaves the world. Do you honestly think Westeros is better off with men like Ned out of the picture?

[AchillesReborn]

So because most people like morality and the rule of law, Ned represents the "sheeple"? It sounds to me like he is a man of common sense.

I don't think GRRM is trying to say that at all. I think he's trying to show how tenuous the rule of law is, and all the suffering that ensues when it leaves the world. Do you honestly think Westeros is better off with men like Ned out of the picture?

No his death shocked me quit a bit, but that is the effect that was most likely intended. The only negative connotation that comes with the term sheeple is they tend to be close minded people(self-righteous).

[MyLittleDirewolf]

But this is a great portrayal of reality, everyone is good and bad. Some are just more righteous(good out-weights the bad). No one in this world is perfect we all make mistakes, just like the characters in westeros. I think if you can learn anything from this series of books its forgiveness.

I think that killing the mad king, for the reasons he killed him, out-weights the fact that he pushed a kid out of a window to save his own ass. I mean he did have to live with the title kingslayer, and all the hate that came with it, for a very long time.

I'll admit the twincest is quit disgusting but it is a interesting thing you only get to hear about in a crazy fantasy world.

But Jaime doesn't have his crisis about honor and what it means to be a knight until his time with Brienne. It's also not that one deed outweighs the other, it's that Jaime begins to change as a person. I don't think Old Jaime would have given a shit about finding Sansa or gone back for Brienne.

[Wanderer]

So you would say that Jamie killing the mad king wasn’t justified?

It was justified. That was his choice and a good one to boot. I think most "sheeple" agree that you can disobey a direct order if it is totally immoral. That is why "sheeple" understand the spirit of the law rather than the letter. You are taking exceptions and paradoxes and trying to run a campaign with it. It wont amount to anything.

Besides, law can be abused in both directions. With more men like Ned, you get less breaking, and less Mad Kings to begin with.

[AchillesReborn]

But Jaime doesn't have his crisis about honor and what it means to be a knight until his time with Brienne. It's also not that one deed outweighs the other, it's that Jaime begins to change as a person. I don't think Old Jaime would have given a shit about finding Sansa or gone back for Brienne.

I would have to disagree, he killed the mad king in order to protect the people. He knew he would be hated by the very people he fought to defend, he's actually a martyr in my opinion. As Jamie said "I don't care what they think of me", he cares about what is just.

I mentioned earlier Ned is one of my favorite characters. In all honesty I agree that the world would be better with him, but he was naive. Being naive got him killed.

[Wanderer]

No his death shocked me quit a bit, but that is the effect that was most likely intended. The only negative connotation that comes with the term sheeple is they tend to be close minded people(self-righteous).

But calling are large chunk of the population (that you happen to disagree with) "sheeple" isn't close minded?

[Wales338]

I would have to disagree, he killed the mad king in order to protect the people. He knew he would be hated by the very people he fought to defend, he's actually a martyr in my opinion. As Jamie said "I don't care what they think of me", he cares about what is just.

I mentioned earlier Ned is one of my favorite characters. In all honesty I agree that the world would be better with him, but he was naive. Being naive got him killed.

He pushed a small child out of a window with the intent to kill him. How exactly is that him caring about what is just?

[MyLittleDirewolf]

I would have to disagree, he killed the mad king in order to protect the people. He knew he would be hated by the very people he fought to defend, he's actually a martyr in my opinion. As Jamie said "I don't care what they think of me", he cares about what is just.

So why didn't he stop the Mad King from killing Rickard and Brandon Stark? Jaime is not all about what is just, at least not at that point. If he was, would he be sleeping with his sister? Would he have pushed a young child out the window?

Edit - I think many others would have done the same re: killing the Mad King had they been there and knew what he was going to do.

[AchillesReborn]

But calling are large chunk of the population (that you happen to disagree with) "sheeple" isn't close minded?

We categorize people to make a complicated, idea more simple. Their are always outliers and exceptions to the rules.

Here we go again.............

Immorality compounds immorality. Ned, and most people with any shred of honor understand that rules and law are not constructs to be bent for your purpose or ignored at will and convenience. They are the foundations of our civilization. If we all behaved like those in KL this world would go to pot over night. All this plotting and scheming isn't the hallmark of genius. It is a symptom of a civilization in steep decline and a byproduct of weakness. I personally hate it when people perform mental gymnastics trying to justify immoral behavior. It smacks of mental laziness and ignorance. Calling it intelligent is just downright idiotic.

It was justified. That was his choice and a good one to boot. I think most "sheeple" agree that you can disobey a direct order if it is totally immoral. That is why "sheeple" understand the spirit of the law rather than the letter. You are taking exceptions and paradoxes and trying to run a campaign with it. It wont amount to anything.

Besides, law can be abused in both directions. With more men like Ned, you get less breaking, and less Mad Kings to begin with.

[AchillesReborn]

So why didn't he stop the Mad King from killing Rickard and Brandon Stark? Jaime is not all about what is just, at least not at that point. If he was, would he be sleeping with his sister? Would he have pushed a young child out the window?

Edit - I think many others would have done the same re: killing the Mad King had they been there and knew what he was going to do.

He was at war with them, he was on the mad king's side, more by default than by choice, I would like to assume.

Many others were in that castle, he is the one that stood up to the challenge of being hated for being a traitor.