Eddard Stark represents the sheeple?

[Sullen]

The king actually betrayed Ned when he killed his Father and Brother, for which the mad king had no just cause, also I did say that Ned thinks Jamie killed Aerys II when it suited him.

The King betrayed Ned... what? *brainfart*

And the King was justified in killing Brandon, he had just threatened the Prince, it is punishable by death.

Lord Rickard's death was not just though.

[TheDrifter]

he's a dumb "conservative." but still one of the nicest people that lived. and there are many horrible people in this story.

[Penguin king]

Well they did something highly dishonorable then.

It's a catch 22 where either decision is dishonourable. That's my point.

I'm pretty sure kinslaying is allowable where the laws of the land give no other choice. If Benjen had deserted the watch, and Ned had captured him then Ned would have had no other choice but to execute his younger brother. There would have been some dishonor to the Stark family as a whole, but any personal dishonor would have fallen on Benjen.

Likewise two brothers meeting on opposite sides in battle have an obligation to fight each other. If death happens to be the result, then that's tragic, but not dishonorable.

A king on the other hand, has the prerogative to pardon criminals, so if Renly were to defeat Stannis in battle, and Stannis were taken alive, Renly is under no obligation to have his elder brother executed. If he does anyway, then he becomes a kinslayer as he had his brother killed even though the law did not demand it.

That's just my opinion of course. People's views on the matter are likely to differ, just as they'd differ from person to person in Westeros.

[mrunderhill]

No. Had he put his family before his duty, he would never hae gone to KL in the first place.

The Ned was an honorable man, but he mainly was a man who did what was right. He had the choice of either saving the life of his innocent daughter or dieing in an attempt at an empty gesture that wuld hae been cut short immediately by Ser Illyn anyway. I commend him for refusing to grandstand when it served no purpose.

When push comes to shove, he put the lives of his family above duty and honour. The question is not whether he did what was morally right, but whether he betrayed his king and the realm for his family. The answer is he obviously did. There are no two ways about it.

[Manderlay]

snip

You say that Ned shouting about Joffery being bastard would have made a difference because of his reputation, i dont think so, Ned had no reason to believe that after he saw the people in KL, they were all playing games, who would have supported Ned after his Death? The Dornish? Doran Martell was invested in his plan with regarding Targs, Stormlands? they would support Renly and not accept Stannis as they had no love for him, even after knowing the truth that Stannis is the rightful heir. The vale lords would have supported Ned but Lysa Arryn was in the way, the vale lords have a good track record of loyalty to the Arryns, they would not go against the wishes of Lasy arryn no matter how much they wished to, Only the riverlands and North would care which doesnt make a difference sicne they joined Robb anyway, the Iron Islands, never Balon Greyjoy hates Ned.

So my question to you is, as i stated above in the post, what purpose would it have served other than risking his daughters life.

[Manderlay]

The King betrayed Ned... what? *brainfart*

And the King was justified in killing Brandon, he had just threatened the Prince, it is punishable by death.

Lord Rickard's death was not just though.

Is Brandon Stark wrong to shout about Rhaegar kidnapping his sister? threatening the prince and actually harming the prince are two very different things, Brandon had every right to confront Rhaegar, and yes the king betrayed the Starks, even if he is king, that doesn't give him the right to kill people just because they displeased him and said stuff about his son, he has no just cause and he took his lords who owed him fealty for granted, that was all Aerys fault. There was no need to kill Brandon, instead he should have gotten to the root of the matter and ask why his son kidnapped Lyanna. That was the right thing to do, not kill him.

[mrunderhill]

You say that Ned shouting about Joffery being bastard would have made a difference because of his reputation, i dont think so, Ned had no reason to believe that after he saw the people in KL, they were all playing games, who would have supported Ned after his Death? The Dornish? Doran Martell was invested in his plan with regarding Targs, Stormlands? they would support Renly and not accept Stannis as they had no love for him, even after knowing the truth that Stannis is the rightful heir. The vale lords would have supported Ned but Lysa Arryn was in the way, the vale lords have a good track record of loyalty to the Arryns, they would not go against the wishes of Lasy arryn no matter how much they wished to, Only the riverlands and North would care which doesnt make a difference sicne they joined Robb anyway, the Iron Islands, never Balon Greyjoy hates Ned.

So my question to you is, as i stated above in the post, what purpose would it have served other than risking his daughters life.

Not all Bannerman follow their Lord when they think the chances of winning are slim or the Lord is wrong. More Lords would have followed Stannis if they knew his claim was just. Part of the reason Renly has so much support may have something to do with Stannis being viewed as another usurper at the start. If Stannis is trying to steal the throne from the rightful heir, may as well serve the more popular Renly, who is doing the same.

Ned's words would also have bound Robb and the Riverrlands to Stannis, giving him more power and the ability to sway the opportunistic lords.

However, doing your duty means doing it no matter the personal cost. Davos would not have betrayed Stannis in such a position.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

Ned seems kind of like a hypocrite, although I don't speak ill of the dead, he is fictional after-all. If Ned had to choose between betraying his family or the king, I think he would have betrayed the king.

I don't think he would have if he had sworn a sacred oath to protect the King.

[Sullen]

Is Brandon Stark wrong to shout about Rhaegar kidnapping his sister? threatening the prince and actually harming the prince are two very different things, Brandon had every right to confront Rhaegar, and yes the king betrayed the Starks, even if he is king, that doesn't give him the right to kill people just because they displeased him and said stuff about his son, he has no just cause and he took his lords who owed him fealty for granted, that was all Aerys fault. There was no need to kill Brandon, instead he should have gotten to the root of the matter and ask why his son kidnapped Lyanna. That was the right thing to do, not kill him.

Brandon had no right to threaten one above his station.

He is not equal to the Prince or the King, and threatening to kill the Prince is an act of High Treason, punishable by death.

Killing him was not the right thing to do, no (it was rather stupid), but it was entirely justified and lawful.

[tallTale]

Sorry, Ned did nothing wrong.

This has been said many times but it's because of threads like this where it has to be repeated that King Robert getting killed while bore hunting was complete and utter BS.

[Manderlay]

Killing him was not the right thing to do, no (it was rather stupid), but it was entirely justified and lawful.

How can it be lawful and justified, there wasn't even a trial, IIRC Brandon shouted for Rhaegar to come out and answer why he kidnapped his sister, there is no actual threat, but only anger on part of Brandon which can be viewed as threat, that could have been easily overlooked, and btw even Dunk got a trial in THK.

[Sullen]

How can it be lawful and justified, there wasn't even a trial, IIRC Brandon shouted for Rhaegar to come out and answer why he kidnapped his sister, there is no actual threat, but only anger on part of Brandon which can be viewed as threat, that could have been easily overlooked, and btw even Dunk got a trial in THK.

There was a trial of some sorts. A trial by fire.

Aerys was the supreme authority, he decides what is lawful and what is not, he is the law.

And Brandon asked Rhaegar to "Come out and die", if that isn't a threat, I don't know what is.

[Techelles]

Yeah, that Ned. No mind of his own. Goes along to get along. Never voicing his opinions or going against the grain. He's a real go-with-the-flow sort of dude. :rolleyes:

[MyLittleDirewolf]

Ned is a sheeple? Who is it that Ned blindly follows?

[AchillesReborn]

Ned is a sheeple? Who is it that Ned blindly follows?

The laws of westeros. Probably his father's ideals of honor. I think if we can learn anything from all the characters in this story, its not to make ideals(For GRRM will kill all idols! Lol).

[Manderlay]

snip

You have to understand that at that time from Ned's view there were no other options left to him, shouting before his beheading would only get Sansa killed, and he did all he could for Robert, he came South even when he didn't wish to, leaving his home and family which pained him greatly, he did that out of loyalty. You cant fault Ned for thinking of his daughters life, it was the best course he had in front of him.

[yolkboy]

Ned is a sheeple? Who is it that Ned blindly follows?

Yes, why this thread was ever conceived is a mystery to me.

The laws of westeros

Ned co-led a rebellion against a King.

[AchillesReborn]

Yes, why this thread was ever conceived is a mystery to me.

Says the 57th reply. ;]

I just think he tends to have ideals, and he is killed because of them. People Idolize Ned as some perfectly moral and honest man, but he died because he couldn't outsmart the competition. He was blindly following the ideals westeros society implemented on him.

What is more important, daddy's little girl? Or society as a whole(everyone who lives in westeros)?

[Manderlay]

There was a trial of some sorts. A trial by fire.

Aerys was the supreme authority, he decides what is lawful and what is not, he is the law.

And Brandon asked Rhaegar to "Come out and die", if that isn't a threat, I don't know what is.

So what if Brandon said that, he was still right, his sister was kidnapped, and Aerys trial by fire was not actually a trial, he burned Rickard Stark while Brandon was strangled trying to save his father, how is that a trial may i ask, there is no such thing according to the laws of the seven kingdoms, quite frankly i find your sense of justice and trial appalling. For every threat that a man makes against the royal family should he be killed, even if he didnt actually do the deed, because Rhaegar wasnt at KL at that time, what about the crime of Rhaegar of kidnapping a stark, where is the justice, how can you defend a mad king and his actions, who never weighed Brandons threats and accusations nor was Brandon given any fair trial.

[Manderlay]

No. Had he put his family before his duty, he would never hae gone to KL in the first place.

The Ned was an honorable man, but he mainly was a man who did what was right. He had the choice of either saving the life of his innocent daughter or dieing in an attempt at an empty gesture that wuld hae been cut short immediately by Ser Illyn anyway. I commend him for refusing to grandstand when it served no purpose.

:agree: