if eddard lives, does varys continue?

[jon crow]

suppose, instead of being executed, eddard becomes lord protector of the realm in accordance with robert's last wishes. under his leadership, management of the realm almost certainly improves after the economic disaster that was robert baratheon. ned would have about four years before joffrey comes of age and even longer if he can manage to disinherit joffrey since he knows the truth. ned would never take the throne for himself but if he had been able to continue his plan and place stannis on the throne, i believe stannis would be a just ruler, a hard man but fair, without robert's extravagances. and even if eddard could not justify disinheriting joffrey, joffrey is not so old that ned could not raise him to be a better man if he could separate him from cersei.

now, i really believe that varys has the best interests of the realm at heart and his and illyrio's plan involves a lot of bloodshed. illyrio might only care about placing his son (assuming the blackfyre theory) on the throne but varys wants a good man ruling the realm and is not particular about who it is so long as the realm prospers. eddard would go a long way towards cleaning up the corruption in king's landing so i wonder, does varys hold off on the preparations to crown aegon? and, if eddard's regency or stannis's reign results in long term prosperity, does he scrap them altogether?

varys's reasoning to kevan for crowning aegon is that he has been raised believing it is his duty to rule, not his right. he's worked with his hands among the common people, he is well educated and cultured; he has been cultivated to be the ideal king. however, once aegon has ascended the iron throne, his reign only lasts as long as his life. there is no guarantee that aegon's children will be as well-suited to rule. they will fall victim to the same trappings of nobility that varys fears. aegon can only be a short term solution, so would varys risk plunging the land into a bloody war (and not to mention, varys needs the realm destabilized and fragmented for an invasion to work) to change the long term if eddard manages to heal the realm.

[Lady Nastja]

Hmm, you raise an interesting point.

Although, I think Varys would continue with the plan to crown Aegon. This is, going by your view, that Serra is a Blackfyre and the sister of Varys, and that I+S= Young Griff/Aegon. Varys is then YG's uncle and would obviously prefer to have his own blood seated on the throne, rather that a hard but just King Stannis. Or do you go for the theory that Serra was a Blackfyre but Varys was not? (Honestly, there are so many YG theories at this point, I think everyone supports a different one :laugh: )

[Red Knight]

i personally believe Varys to think too much of himself, other characters want things but they don't claim they have honorable intentions (like LF or even Cersei), they want to rule, Varys "wants for realm to prosper", but who gave HIM the right to say "hey look my candidate is the right one"

he plays the game of thrones but criticises ned for the same thing, a hypocrite he is, nothin more

[Mikkel]

suppose, instead of being executed, eddard becomes lord protector of the realm in accordance with robert's last wishes. under his leadership, management of the realm almost certainly improves after the economic disaster that was robert baratheon. ned would have about four years before joffrey comes of age and even longer if he can manage to disinherit joffrey since he knows the truth. ned would never take the throne for himself but if he had been able to continue his plan and place stannis on the throne, i believe stannis would be a just ruler, a hard man but fair, without robert's extravagances. and even if eddard could not justify disinheriting joffrey, joffrey is not so old that ned could not raise him to be a better man if he could separate him from cersei.

now, i really believe that varys has the best interests of the realm at heart and his and illyrio's plan involves a lot of bloodshed. illyrio might only care about placing his son (assuming the blackfyre theory) on the throne but varys wants a good man ruling the realm and is not particular about who it is so long as the realm prospers. eddard would go a long way towards cleaning up the corruption in king's landing so i wonder, does varys hold off on the preparations to crown aegon? and, if eddard's regency or stannis's reign results in long term prosperity, does he scrap them altogether?

varys's reasoning to kevan for crowning aegon is that he has been raised believing it is his duty to rule, not his right. he's worked with his hands among the common people, he is well educated and cultured; he has been cultivated to be the ideal king. however, once aegon has ascended the iron throne, his reign only lasts as long as his life. there is no guarantee that aegon's children will be as well-suited to rule. they will fall victim to the same trappings of nobility that varys fears. aegon can only be a short term solution, so would varys risk plunging the land into a bloody war (and not to mention, varys needs the realm destabilized and fragmented for an invasion to work) to change the long term if eddard manages to heal the realm.

Good post! I read the title thinking it was another "Ned isn't really dead" thread. Thanks for proving me wrong there!

I like to believe that Varys does indeed have the best interests of the realm at heart, and that he would side with a Ned / Stannis coalition. I'm not convinced - how much truth there is in Varys' claims to be a selfless civil servant is hard to say, but there is unfortunately a certain risk that he's only playing a role (he's definitely capable) and is playing the Game for his family as much as anyone else.

Assuming he is what he says, then yes I think he'd recognize Ned's ability to set the realm right, and Stannis' ability to rule justly, if placed on the throne. Of course, Stannis does come with some Melisandre-shaped baggage, and what Varys would think of her and her magic and her god is impossible to tell.

i personally believe Varys to think too much of himself, other characters want things but they don't claim they have honorable intentions (like LF or even Cersei), they want to rule, Varys "wants for realm to prosper", but who gave HIM the right to say "hey look my candidate is the right one"

he plays the game of thrones but criticises ned for the same thing, a hypocrite he is, nothin more

He may be. There is a difference between supporting a claimant you believe to be the best for the realm, and one you support out of self-interest though. Which of the two Varys is remains to be seen - he claims the former, but it may well prove to be the latter.

[Starfell]

I think that by the time of AGoT, Varys was too invested in the Aegon plot to back out. Even if he's doing it out of concern for the Realm, there's still his own personal allegiance to factor into the equation. Plus, Aegon might simply be a "known quantity" for Varys whereas Eddard and Stannis are less so, or else at odds with what Varys deems to be a suitable ruler.

Still, given that what he (claims he) really wanted was for the Realm to be unified and prosperous, I wonder what he'd have done had he been given foreknowledge of just how divisive the Wot5K and its assocaited conflicts would be; it's certainly not the unification against a foreign invader that he was probaly hoping for when Viserys and Dany were added to the plot

[Tony Soprano]

Varys cares for the Realm just as much as Littlefinger does.

All he wants is power and control, which is exactly what he'll get if he puts a pawn like Aegon on the Iron Throne. It doesn't matter if it was Ned, Joffrey, or someone third entirely. Varys would still plot to overthrow him.

[The Bastard of Walton]

I believe it was always his intention, no matter who was in charge, to carry on with this plan. The events of ASoIaF have meerly made Varys push them through more quickly than he probably would have liked. And it could possibly cost him everything he had planned for.

[daario's man]

Varys' apparent care forthe realm seems to be so much bull#@%t when you see all the damage done on his watch, plus what could have been the most devastating thing all, a Dothraki invasion, almost instigated by him. He claims (F)Aegon to be the perfect king yet neither knows him or can hope that his humble upbringing will have any impact on his descendants.

[Lion of Judah]

Ned was not going to become Lord Protector of the realm, he was forced to play that card when Joffery demanded his coronation. His intention was always to turn the Iron Throne over to Stannis once his force arrived.

ETA: So in the case of Ned handing things over to Stannis, it would mean men like Varys and Little Finger would have to run for their lives because Stannis would behead them all.

[MCBC]

Varys cares for the Realm just as much as Littlefinger does.

Exactly. Varys might talk about doing things for the "good of the people" & all that but he is only out for himself. There are reasons we don't know about when it comes for Varys & why he is so attached to Aegon's cause. I think one of them is that Varys that wants to be SEEN as positive influence on the realm. Vary's probably knows how people view him, how they see him as being responsible for the rot in Kings Landing like Barristan has said.

He doesn't want the power for himself, he wants a piece of the glory in being seen as a big influence to the King who restores order to the realm. It changes the way that people see him.

[PrimeRhaegar]

I honestly want Jon Con to kill varys like he implies, but yes i feel the plan will still go ahead. Hell he was also expecting viserys to still be alive

[Red Knight]

i'm glad so many people agree thet varys' care for realm is bull*

[Pod The Impaler]

suppose, instead of being executed, eddard becomes lord protector of the realm in accordance with robert's last wishes. under his leadership, management of the realm almost certainly improves after the economic disaster that was robert baratheon. ned would have about four years before joffrey comes of age and even longer if he can manage to disinherit joffrey since he knows the truth. ned would never take the throne for himself but if he had been able to continue his plan and place stannis on the throne, i believe stannis would be a just ruler, a hard man but fair, without robert's extravagances. and even if eddard could not justify disinheriting joffrey, joffrey is not so old that ned could not raise him to be a better man if he could separate him from cersei.

now, i really believe that varys has the best interests of the realm at heart and his and illyrio's plan involves a lot of bloodshed. illyrio might only care about placing his son (assuming the blackfyre theory) on the throne but varys wants a good man ruling the realm and is not particular about who it is so long as the realm prospers. eddard would go a long way towards cleaning up the corruption in king's landing so i wonder, does varys hold off on the preparations to crown aegon? and, if eddard's regency or stannis's reign results in long term prosperity, does he scrap them altogether?

varys's reasoning to kevan for crowning aegon is that he has been raised believing it is his duty to rule, not his right. he's worked with his hands among the common people, he is well educated and cultured; he has been cultivated to be the ideal king. however, once aegon has ascended the iron throne, his reign only lasts as long as his life. there is no guarantee that aegon's children will be as well-suited to rule. they will fall victim to the same trappings of nobility that varys fears. aegon can only be a short term solution, so would varys risk plunging the land into a bloody war (and not to mention, varys needs the realm destabilized and fragmented for an invasion to work) to change the long term if eddard manages to heal the realm.

I think Varys does continue, definitely.

With Eddard as Lord protector, the next thing that happens is Eddard and Stannis proclaim the bastardy of Cersei's children. Varys muddies the waters, as the Lannisters and others deny the claim and fight the Northmen and Stannis. The war happens, but a bit later and taking a different form. Aegon or Daenerys still have a chance to invade in the aftermath.

[Bawn]

Varys continues. He simply waits for an opportunity although I believe griff has thrown his plans into chaos.

[Bawn]

Wrong thread. Sorry (edit)

[mindchap]

There would be no books so we would never know.

[jon crow]

There would be no books so we would never know.

well, yeah... obviously.

but threads like this are more about the characters, not so much events. by testing our own current understanding of them based on what we DO know and then applying that understanding of the character to a hypothetical scenario and seeing how it stands up in the community, i hope to gain a little extra perspective. it's not going to be perfect because the source material isn't complete, but i find it useful reading how others evaluate the characters' canon actions and what it means to their motivations, plans, personality, etc.

[Jabronius Maximus]

The one problem I have with Varys and his 'for the realm' spiel is how he handled Rhaegar. There were rumors that Varys 'poisoned' Aerys' ears and made him distrust his own son in addition to contributing to his general paranoia. Why do that when a seemingly good Targaryen king is only a couple years from taking the throne? Maybe Varys saw that Aerys was a total nutcase and decided to speed up Rhaegar's ascension, but when things went to shit he smuggled Aegon to use later. Its a hard sell for me, but its somewhat plausible.

For the record I firmly agree with the theory that has Aegon as a Blackfyre, and Varys as a pro-blackfyre.

[jon crow]

maybe varys wasn't counting on rhaegar coming down with a case of dead so soon? or at the very least outliving aerys. there was duskendale before robert's rebellion even got started.

varys may very well be pro-blackfyre but i don't think he's one himself. there's a theory that aegon's mother is varys's sister but i don't think there's anything in the text to suggest varys had any living family at all. his friendship with illyrio began at a young age and if serra was illyrio's second wife i just don't see it. varys does have the whole shaved head thing going like egg, though maybe he does this just to facilitate his use of wigs and disguises. not sure if anything has been said about his eyes.

varys's loyalties are doubtless more complicated than the simple 'for the realm,' but i believe he had a sincere admiration for eddard stark and men like him who worked to preserve it. however, once he committed to backing aegon, these men had to go for his plan to be successful. working for a better tomorrow doesn't mean you can't take sides. but even this doesn't necessarily mean that varys is 'right.'

[BreastplateWithNipples]

I don't see how an Eddard & Stannis team was going to rule the realm peacefully. Stannis is not going to kiss Ned Stark's hand for handing him the throne - he's going to treat Ned like he just did what was his duty to do. Stannis is going to bring his "pals" from Dragonstone with him when he goes to KL, that means the Florents and Melisandre. Most of those are already worshipping Rhollor. And Stannis isn't going to keep them at arm's length, his wife will badger him to make Alester Florent his hand and put Eddard aside.

Tywin Lannister would at that point already be marching through the Riverlands towards King's Landing, to restore Joffrey to the throne (if Joffrey is still alive). His odds wouldn't be all that bad because Stannis would not actually have a great deal of support as king. The Tyrells would be loath to come to the aid of a king who so obviously leans on the Florents for support... Renly would likely prefer to play politics before he bestirs himself to leave Storm's End... Lysa Arryn would not do a thing... Dorne would wait things out... only Eddard Stark would actually have an incentive to fight for Stannis and even that only because he knows Tywin wants him dead. Not the greatest of causes to rally the northern bannermen. The Tullys would probably join Stannis in self-defense but only once Tywin is already in amongst them like a lion in a herd of sheep. Oh and there's grumpy old Balon who will certainly rise against the Iron Throne as soon as the Lannisters and Starks are embroiled in battle. Fun times all around!

The realm would be plunged into chaos very quickly. Varys might have to leave King's Landing but he's not going to cease playing his game. He would work for the speedy downfall of Stannis and then offer his services to whoever triumphs. Meanwhile, he'd wait for Drogo, Dany and Viserys to come west and set sail for Westeros. The Others would slowly creep towards the wall, which is manned by a decrepit Night's Watch whose calls for help remain unheard. There would still be a song of ice and fire to be sung ;)