Theon & the taking of Winterfell

[Ser Edmure Tully]

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is how it goes down right?

Theon sends Dagmer Cleftjaw to Torrhen's Square, drawing out Ser Rodrick Cassel and any competent soldiers that Winterfell still has in an attempt to drive him off. Fine.

Theon sends men over the walls with grappling hooks and kills whatever guards remain. Fine.

All in all, Theon captures the great castle of Winterfell with between 20-50 men? Is this the correct number?

How many people actually live in Winterfell and the adjacent Wintertown? 500? 1000? Even if they were solely women, children and old men, surely there are enough people within this place to overwhelm the tiny force Theon captured it with?

Im pretty sure there must be something I'm missing, and I really am quite open to being wrong, but I really just dont get why the civilian population just didnt jump the ironborn at first opportunity, especially considering they can't all be on watch all the time.

[Woftis]

This has been brought up before and there were a lot of good arguments. I have to agree though. Strength in numbers and all that.

God knows what they were thinking. :dunno:

[Ser Edmure Tully]

Ahhh fair enough. Do you remember what the topic was called perchance? I'd love to read it?

[King of Winters]

This has been brought up before and there were a lot of good arguments. I have to agree though. Strength in numbers and all that.

God knows what they were thinking. :dunno:

Hodor?

[thecryptile]

Between Robb going south and Rodrick's defense of Torrhen's square, all of the men capable of bearing arms were gone when Theon Turncloak took Winterfell. But, women and old men could certianly make things hard for the Ironborn through sabotage and civil disobedience.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

Hodor?

Sounds about right.

[Woftis]

Just had a quick search but can't find it, sorry. :(

Hodor?

:lol:

[Ser Edmure Tully]

Just had a quick search but can't find it, sorry. :(

:lol:

That's sweet, I did a quick one as well, before the OP but couldnt find anything.

Oh well, I'm sure it'll pop up somewhere.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Just don't think about it. It's the weakest part of the books and screams "plot necessity".

Theon taking Winterfell with his thirty-odd is as unlikely as Dagmer Cleftjaw threatening Torrhen's Sqare and later surviving an open battle against fifty times his numbers under Ser Rodrik Cassel.

[Penguin king]

A couple of his men swam the moat and took one of the gates before anyone knew what was happening. Once inside I imagine their first step was to sieze the keep and the two Stark boys. Before the few remaining guardsmen could mount a defence Bran was already taken hostage and had officially surrendered Winterfell to Theon.

With the Bran and Rickon as hostages, I don't think anyone could make a move, and by the time they made their escape, most of the likely leaders for a counter rebellion had already been killed in one way or another. Even so, I doubt they could have held the keep much longer without some sort of uprising.

[Dove]

You're not missing anything, Theon was just being dumb and stubborn - he tried to have and hold Winterfell with his tiny force because he had such a huge emotional connection to it.

e: also yeah the numbers are a bit whack. :lol: A lot of GRRM's battle scenarios seem to be, really.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

Just don't think about it. It's the weakest part of the books and screams "plot necessity".

Theon taking Winterfell with his thirty-odd is as unlikely as Dagmer Cleftjaw threatening Torrhen's Sqare and later surviving an open battle against fifty times his numbers under Ser Rodrik Cassel.

True. That and Ser Rodrik turning into an utter fucking moron after 1 & a half books of being reasonably intelligent.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

You're not missing anything, Theon was just being dumb and stubborn - he tried to have and hold Winterfell with his tiny force because he had such a huge emotional connection to it.

Yeah but my point is, Theon has maximum, fifty men.

Fifty men cant all be on watch 24/7.

The maximum he'd have on watch would have to be 25, otherwise, the next watch would be smaller in number, something you wouldn't particularly want.

Winterfell is pretty big, surely the entire civilian population of this giant freaking castle, thats so big it has two walls and moat, plus a town adjacent to it, could have found it in themselves to butcher 25 alert Ironborn, and 25 Ironborn rubbing sleep out of their eyes.

I mean, why wasnt this Mikken or Farlen's first thought once the castle was taken? Especially considering there's two giant wolves in the castle which could easily kill between 5-10 Ironborn if set loose.

I know Theon was an idiot, and had a massive connection to Winterfell, my problem is the people inside it who must have had an incredible advantage of numbers just let it be.

[Dove]

Point taken. Everyone involved suffering from a strong case of plot-induced stupidity?

[Penguin king]

Yeah but my point is, Theon has maximum, fifty men.

Fifty men cant all be on watch 24/7.

The maximum he'd have on watch would have to be 25, otherwise, the next watch would be smaller in number, something you wouldn't particularly want.

Winterfell is pretty big, surely the entire civilian population of this giant freaking castle, thats so big it has two walls and moat, plus a town adjacent to it, could have found it in themselves to butcher 25 alert Ironborn, and 25 Ironborn rubbing sleep out of their eyes.

I mean, why wasnt this Mikken or Farlen's first thought once the castle was taken? Especially considering there's two giant wolves in the castle which could easily kill between 5-10 Ironborn if set loose.

When he had the boys he didn't need to mount a massive watch. It'd be too risky to rebel when the King's brothers are hostages. Unfortunately for Theon, he got complacent, and let the Boys escape. At that point he did increase his guard, and you could see the strain was getting to his men. By the time Roderik Cassel returned most of his remaining Ironborn knew their days were numbered and just wanted to go out in a blaze of glory

Edit. As for Mikken and Farlen. Mikken died when they took the castle, and Farlen was killed shortly after Bran and RIkon's escape. Neither was around to take advantage of Theon's later weakness.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

Point taken. Everyone involved suffering from a strong case of plot-induced stupidity?

I guess so. I really wish i could stop myself overthinking these things...

[Ser Edmure Tully]

When he had the boys he didn't need to mount a massive watch. It'd be too risky to rebel when the King's brothers are hostages. Unfortunately for Theon, he got complacent, and let the Boys escape. At that point he did increase his guard, and you could see the strain was getting to his men. By the time Roderik Cassel returned most of his remaining Ironborn knew their days were numbered and just wanted to go out in a blaze of glory

True enough, but unless Theon had ten guys out the front of Bran and Rickon's door every day, it would still be possible. Difficult, but not impossible to kill them all surely.

Especially if someone half-cluey had the good sense to go murder the (probably two) guards at Bran and Rickons room during dinner. Where's the hooded man when he could have actually been useful?

[kephv]

I suppose they did out number the ironborn but were probably servants and the like. And the ironborn were hardened killers.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

Edit. As for Mikken and Farlen. Mikken died when they took the castle, and Farlen was killed shortly after Bran and RIkon's escape. Neither was around to take advantage of Theon's later weakness.

Yeah I know, what I'd meant was, why didnt Mikken think "Maybe I should pretend to submit to these idiots, considering Im one of the only guys with access to weapons and all, and later help everyone else take back the castle"

As opposed to :

"Hmmm, Ironborn, in the castle, long pointy spears, what to do, what to do ... I know! Ill insult them repeatedly!!!"

[Ser Edmure Tully]

I guess I just have a hard time accepting the overwhelming naivety and stupidity of the Starks, most of their vassals and retainers (yes Ser Rodrik, Im looking at you) , and apparently, their smallfolk.