Does the Story of the Dunedain and the Northmen seem similar or is is just me?

[joluoto]

Of course there are similarities. It's called influence. Authors influence each other, and have always done that.

[Charerg]

I guess there is some resemblance between a young Boromir and a young Robert, except the whoring, they even look alike. However, Boromir remains the Great Captain fighting in wars, loved by his people etc, where as Robert turns into a fat drunk. There are no similarities between Stannis and Faramir, except both were overshadowed by their big brother. Even their reactions to this are not the same. Stannis is jealous and wants to step out of his brother's shadow where as Faramir is a bit intimidated and accepts Boromir as his legendary older brother.

I'd actually say there's a much stronger parallel between the Robb Stark - Jon Snow relationship and Boromir - Faramir.

Like Boromir, Robb became a fallen hero, a legendary warrior and battle commander. And Faramir lived in his shadow, the more introverted yet still extremely loyal to his trueborn brother. There is also great love between the two brothers. Faramir is Captain of Rangers just as Jon leads the Night's Watch.

There may even be a parallel between Faramir's near-death and being "almost" burned by his father and Jon's assassination and possible resurrection (if he is "almost" burned aswell, but is saved by somebody).

[mrunderhill]

I'd actually say there's a much stronger parallel between the Robb Stark - Jon Snow relationship and Boromir - Faramir.

Like Boromir, Robb became a fallen hero, a legendary warrior and battle commander. And Faramir lived in his shadow, the more introverted yet still extremely loyal to his trueborn brother. There is also great love between the two brothers. Faramir is Captain of Rangers just as Jon leads the Night's Watch.

There may even be a parallel between Faramir's near-death and being "almost" burned by his father and Jon's assassination and possible resurrection (if he is "almost" burned aswell, but is saved by somebody).

I wouldn't say Robb was a fallen hero and he certainly is not a legendary warrior.

If I was to pick the closest parallel it would be Ned's and Robert's relation. A young Robert was similar to Boromir. They looked alike, were legendary warriors and commanders. Hugely charismatic, loved by their men, famous for their bold military tactics. Both fearless and leading from the front. Taller and stronger than other men. Ned like Faramir, though a great general does not love fighting for fighting's sake. He has no ambition and would rather have Gondor as queen amongst queens rather than an empress amongst slaves. Fiercely loyal and in time can inspire great love. In the end he proves a better man than his more famous brother. In fact thinking about it the Ned's relationship with Brandon might have been similar.

[Morienthar]

I wouldn't say Robb was a fallen hero and he certainly is not a legendary warrior.

If I was to pick the closest parallel it would be Ned's and Robert's relation. A young Robert was similar to Boromir. They looked alike, were legendary warriors and commanders. Hugely charismatic, loved by their men, famous for their bold military tactics. Both fearless and leading from the front. Taller and stronger than other men. Ned like Faramir, though a great general does not love fighting for fighting's sake. He has no ambition and would rather have Gondor as queen amongst queens rather than an empress amongst slaves. Fiercely loyal and in time can inspire great love. In the end he proves a better man than his more famous brother. In fact thinking about it the Ned's relationship with Brandon might have been similar.

This does suit the situation better.......

Though many people consider Faramir to be Tolkien's greatest blunder,He was apparently the Malcolm(Macbeth) of LOTR.

[mrunderhill]

This does suit the situation better.......

Though many people consider Faramir to be Tolkien's greatest blunder,He was apparently the Malcolm(Macbeth) of LOTR.

Really why do they consider Faramir to be Tolkien's greatest blunder? I know Tolkien considered Faramir the character most like him in the books.

[Morienthar]

Really why do they consider Faramir to be Tolkien's greatest blunder? I know Tolkien considered Faramir the character most like him in the books.

He was supposed to be the perfect man,He got thrust into Eowyn's arms in the end who was in love with Aragorn,But he learned to live with it.

In the initial drafts of LOTR,Faramir dies and Aragorn marries Eowyn.

He doesn't blunder where even Galadriel almost did....He was Tolkien's Gary Stu.

His best character is either Samwise or Tom.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

No I agree with you and if you search you can find bits of LOTR influences in ASOIAF

[mrunderhill]

He was supposed to be the perfect man,He got thrust into Eowyn's arms in the end who was in love with Aragorn,But he learned to live with it.

In the initial drafts of LOTR,Faramir dies and Aragorn marries Eowyn.

He doesn't blunder where even Galadriel almost did....He was Tolkien's Gary Stu.

His best character is either Samwise or Tom.

I don't buy that at all and there is no point going on about the original story since all the characters are so different.

Faramir is actually quite an emotionally damaged man. He is in the shadow of his great brother, he has a troubled relationship with his father and too easily accepts the censure of both.

Galadriel is no saint. Galadriel for all her power is actually a very grey character. Many purer characters than Galadriel have no problem rejecting the ring like Aragorn, Gandalf, Elrond, Sam (after using it), whilst Merry and Pippin have no desire for it.

As for Eowyn she did love Aragorn, but you can love more than one person. Aragorn was too high for her, too great. It would be like a moth getting too close to a flame. Eowyn and Faramir had more in common and both needed to recover from the emotional damage they had suffered. Both lost their mothers early, both of them in different ways felt like they were stuck in a cage. Both deep down did not like fighting. Then they had both suffered a great loss. Eowyn had lost her uncle, who raised her like a father and Faramir had just lost his father.

[Winterz]

This common assumption is largely incorrect. Númenoreans have as much of the "First Men" blood as the other human people. The difference is, the Númenoreans have a few drops of the Valar's blood within them (the Valar are Tolkien's own version of gods) and that makes them "holy" and somewhat more powerful than other humans.

The Valyrians and Numenoreans however seem to have a lot more in common since their bloodlines are both superior in relation to the average human and their descendants Targs/Dunedain are equally similar.

[mrunderhill]

This common assumption is largely incorrect. Númenoreans have as much of the "First Men" blood as the other human people. The difference is, the Númenoreans have a few drops of the Valar's blood within them (the Valar are Tolkien's own version of gods) and that makes them "holy" and somewhat more powerful than other humans.

The Valyrians and Numenoreans however seem to have a lot more in common since their bloodlines are both superior in relation to the average human and their descendants Targs/Dunedain are equally similar.

Numenoreans do have as much 'First Men' blood as the anyone in theory, but their ancestors though of the same race etc did not actually settle in Arnor or Gondor. They moved further west to Beleriand and got involved with the Elves and the war against Morgoth. They also left the continent of Middle Earth altogether so I don't think they can claim to be the original inhabitants of Arnor or Gondor even if they shared ancestors with the people there.

Also I think you have repeated common misconception yourself. Nobody has any Valar blood, but some people do have the blood of Maiar, lesser angelic beings in their blood. However, the majority of Numenoreans did not have any elvish or Maiar blood. What made the Numenoreans special was living in a land less tainted by evil and living a 'good' life. A life more in accord with what was best for humans.

Only the royal family had Elvish and Maiar blood and this gave them the ability to use 'magic' and other powers.

[Morienthar]

I don't buy that at all and there is no point going on about the original story since all the characters are so different.

Faramir is actually quite an emotionally damaged man. He is in the shadow of his great brother, he has a troubled relationship with his father and too easily accepts the censure of both.

Galadriel is no saint. Galadriel for all her power is actually a very grey character. Many purer characters than Galadriel have no problem rejecting the ring like Aragorn, Gandalf, Elrond, Sam (after using it), whilst Merry and Pippin have no desire for it.

As for Eowyn she did love Aragorn, but you can love more than one person. Aragorn was too high for her, too great. It would be like a moth getting too close to a flame. Eowyn and Faramir had more in common and both needed to recover from the emotional damage they had suffered. Both lost their mothers early, both of them in different ways felt like they were stuck in a cage. Both deep down did not like fighting. Then they had both suffered a great loss. Eowyn had lost her uncle, who raised her like a father and Faramir had just lost his father.

Aragorn and Gandalf are afraid of it.

Elrond is well......Elrond the man wanted to throw it into the flames in the first place.But it would eventually overwhelm him too if came in contact with it.

Samwise is his best written character,his faithfulness is the only thing that saves him.

The only person the ring doesn't affect out right is Tom Bombadil and we don't even know what the hell he is.

Galadriel just shows what others hide,She shows Frodo that even the most powerful and "Pure" will desire the ring.

Faramir while emotionally damaged making all the right decisions is waht makes him too perfect in the first place,He never loses his "Honor" for anything....Even Ned gives up honor for family while Faramir doesn't,not for family nor for his people....

The mention how the book was,some thing I just typed to keep the flow.

[Winterz]

Numenoreans do have as much 'First Men' blood as the anyone in theory, but their ancestors though of the same race etc did not actually settle in Arnor or Gondor. They moved further west to Beleriand and got involved with the Elves and the war against Morgoth. They also left the continent of Middle Earth altogether so I don't think they can claim to be the original inhabitants of Arnor or Gondor even if they shared ancestors with the people there.

Also I think you have repeated common misconception yourself. Nobody has any Valar blood, but some people do have the blood of Maiar, lesser angelic beings in their blood. However, the majority of Numenoreans did not have any elvish or Maiar blood. What made the Numenoreans special was living in a land less tainted by evil and living a 'good' life. A life more in accord with what was best for humans.

Only the royal family had Elvish and Maiar blood and this gave them the ability to use 'magic' and other powers.

Apologies, I didn't mean Valar, I meant Ainur :s

But what's with the whole lands thing, I don't recall ever disputing that so I'm a bit confused here.

You are right about the rest though, but it always intrigued me. Only the Númenorean royal family has the holy blood yes but I just can't see the land and civilization thing enhancing the Númenoreans. I think it might be more related to their ways of religion.

[mrunderhill]

Apologies, I didn't mean Valar, I meant Ainur :s

But what's with the whole lands thing, I don't recall ever disputing that so I'm a bit confused here.

You are right about the rest though, but it always intrigued me. Only the Númenorean royal family has the holy blood yes but I just can't see the land and civilization thing enhancing the Númenoreans. I think it might be more related to their ways of religion.

Well basically Morgoth the infected the whole world with his power. So everywhere in Middle Earth is tainted with his evil. Of course certain things are more tainted than others and certain places. This is precisely what 'sorcery' is in Tolkien's world. Drawing upon Morgoth's evil power to do things.

Just look at things now. Get two twins and raise one with a great diet, modern medication etc and raise the other with a poor diet in poor conditions etc. The one raised in the good conditions will be much healthier, taller, stronger and probably more intelligent. This is a result of the upbringing even though they have identical genes. The same with the Numenoreans, they adopted the elvish lifestyle, which is the best sort. It is in harmony with nature and gets the very best out of each person. There is also the blessings they received for their part, but more than anything it was lifestyle and land.

[mrunderhill]

Aragorn and Gandalf are afraid of it.

Elrond is well......Elrond the man wanted to throw it into the flames in the first place.But it would eventually overwhelm him too if came in contact with it.

Samwise is his best written character,his faithfulness is the only thing that saves him.

The only person the ring doesn't affect out right is Tom Bombadil and we don't even know what the hell he is.

Galadriel just shows what others hide,She shows Frodo that even the most powerful and "Pure" will desire the ring.

Faramir while emotionally damaged making all the right decisions is waht makes him too perfect in the first place,He never loses his "Honor" for anything....Even Ned gives up honor for family while Faramir doesn't,not for family nor for his people....

The mention how the book was,some thing I just typed to keep the flow.

I think you are confusing the book with film. Gandalf and Aragorn are afraid of using the ring. Gandalf in the book handles the ring and throws it into the fire, Elrond probably puts it on a different chain. Aragorn is legally offered the ring by Frodo and rejects it with little temptation. It's not true that the most pure will desire the ring. Elrond and Aragorn do not desire the ring. To understand Galadriel's strong temptation you have to realise that for all her virtues she was a power hungry woman, wanting to rule her own land. In the book Elrond even admits that he is prepared to take the ring to hold it safe, even though he fears to. Sam is not saved just by his faithfulness, but his simple Hobbit sense. He realises that he is just a Hobbit and the things the ring offers him are lies.

I think you are confusing honour with doing the right thing. Faramir will take dishonour to do the right thing. He cares little for honour and is wise enough to realise the ring cannot give him what he really wants. Faramir is supposed to be an example of why Numenor was so great. They had blokes like him running around. Whilst Denethor is an example of one of them going bad. I understand the complaint that Aragorn is too special, whcih he is supposed to be, but not really Faramir.

[Winterz]

I think it was mentioned somewhere that Faramir showed more resemblance to the Numenoreans than his father or Boromir. He had a strong heart, regardless of having lesser fighting skills.

[mrunderhill]

I think it was mentioned somewhere that Faramir showed more resemblance to the Numenoreans than his father or Boromir. He had a strong heart, regardless of having lesser fighting skills.

He showed more Numenorean qualities than his brother, but not his father. He had the same gifts as his father, but chose to be a better man. Faramir is an example of a good Numenorean and Denethor a more fallen Numenorean, but certainly not evil. The love of learning, the ability to read people's characters, the intelligence, the wisdom, the exceptionally strong will, etc are typical Numenorean qualities.

Boromir was like the Rohirrim. Boromir was like a young Robert minus the whoring. The looks, the build, the strength, the charisma, the love of battle, the bravao etc. Denethor, Boromir and Faramir are all throw backs to the old Numenoreans, but Boromir was only a physical throwback.