Does the Story of the Dunedain and the Northmen seem similar or is is just me?

[thenedstark]

Yeah, Varys... sort of... But Gandalf had balls and that made a huge difference.

Do we know that. ;) He is one of the Ainur created by the One and so, an angel or a "divine" creature.

[mindchap]

The biggest difference to me is that there is no clear cut antagonist. Melkor and Sauron pretty much embody evil where in this series we have yet to see anyone like that, and we know too little about the others to know if they are true evil or just too misunderstood.

[The Mother of The Others]

Uh, the Northern men seem like self-made men a little bit more than the Dune- whose entire nation was raised up because they had the blessing of the Powers and stayed true after other men fell into darkness. Northerners have not developed a specially blessed society like the -Dain, elevated above the rest of human societies. They pretty much have to thanklessly eek out a cold-cursed existence. But I can see part of the comparison holding true: they have adhered to better ideals long after the rest of the world fell into average-ness and spiritual lousiness. And there's hints that somewhere out in the cold something is watching and approves of what it sees. So yeah a little bit of commonality.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

I don't see the link between the Dunedain and The Northmen so much but I have definitely noticed a few interesting LOTR/ASOIAF parallels - Boromir & Faramir remind me of a much more functional Robert & Stannis, for one.

[mrunderhill]

I don't see the link between the Dunedain and The Northmen so much but I have definitely noticed a few interesting LOTR/ASOIAF parallels - Boromir & Faramir remind me of a much more functional Robert & Stannis, for one.

I guess there is some resemblance between a young Boromir and a young Robert, except the whoring, they even look alike. However, Boromir remains the Great Captain fighting in wars, loved by his people etc, where as Robert turns into a fat drunk. There are no similarities between Stannis and Faramir, except both were overshadowed by their big brother. Even their reactions to this are not the same. Stannis is jealous and wants to step out of his brother's shadow where as Faramir is a bit intimidated and accepts Boromir as his legendary older brother.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

I guess there is some resemblance between a young Boromir and a young Robert, except the whoring, they even look alike. However, Boromir remains the Great Captain fighting in wars, loved by his people etc, where as Robert turns into a fat drunk. There are no similarities between Stannis and Faramir, except both were overshadowed by their big brother. Even their reactions to this are not the same. Stannis is jealous and wants to step out of his brother's shadow where as Faramir is a bit intimidated and accepts Boromir as his legendary older brother.

Like I said, much more functional. And I think Faramir and Stannis have some similarites, especially when compared to Robert/Boromir. Faramir is more introverted, is highly dutiful and indeed skilled as a commander, yet his achievements are not recognized and acknowledged the way Boromirs are. Yes, the relationships between the brothers are much different, but the circumstances seem to mirror each other a bit.

[mrunderhill]

Like I said, much more functional. And I think Faramir and Stannis have some similarites, especially when compared to Robert/Boromir. Faramir is more introverted, is highly dutiful and indeed skilled as a commander, yet his achievements are not recognized and acknowledged the way Boromirs are. Yes, the relationship between the brothers are much different, but the circumstances seem to mirror each other a bit.

Yes, because Boromir cast such a big shadow. Boromir is regarded by the general public as the greatest man alive. Faramir is no more dutiful than Boromir. It is in part, because Gondor is faced with extinction and Boromir is the better fighter and the better general (even if more reckless). However, Stannis is rigid and sticks to the letter of the law far too much. Faramir on the other hand is willing to forgo the letter of the law to carry out justice. Stannis cannot get peopleto love him, but Faramir inspires the greatest devotion from people. Also Faramir in the end proofs to be and is acknowledged as the better man than his brother. I am not sure the same will be true for Stannis.

[Fire Eater]

I started a thread on the LOTR influences.

I do see parallels between the Dunedain and the First Men and Starks. I also see parallels between the Rangers of the North and The NW.

I find Stannis has parallels with the King of Númenor, Ar-Pharazôn.

The sacred white tree, Nimloth, was cut down by the King of Númenor at the instigation of Sauron and used to light the first flames in the fire of the new religion that worshiped Melkor, the Dark Lord. People were burned in the fires as sacrifices to Melkor, including members of the Faithful, who stayed loyal to the old faith and believed death was not an evil. The people who took up the worship of Melkor became known as "King's Men".

GRRM inverts it; at Mel's instigation, Stannis gave the weirwoods to the fire of the new god, R'hllor, the Lord of Light. The "King's Men" are those who are faithful to the old Faith of the Seven while those who worship R'hllor with Stannis as the "Queen's Men". People, including men who stayed loyal to the Seven, are burned as sacrifices. The Red Faith, as Mel reveals, sees death as evil.

[mrunderhill]

I started a thread on the LOTR influences.

I do see parallels between the Dunedain and the First Men and Starks. I also see parallels between the Rangers of the North and The NW.

I find Stannis has parallels with the King of Númenor, Ar-Pharazôn.

The sacred white tree, Nimloth, was cut down by the King of Númenor at the instigation of Sauron and used to light the first flames in the fire of the new religion that worshiped Melkor, the Dark Lord. People were burned in the fires as sacrifices to Melkor, including members of the Faithful, who stayed loyal to the old faith and believed death was not an evil. The people who took up the worship of Melkor became known as "King's Men".

GRRM inverts it; at Mel's instigation, Stannis gave the weirwoods to the fire of the new god, R'hllor, the Lord of Light. The "King's Men" are those who are faithful to the old Faith of the Seven while those who worship R'hllor with Stannis as the "Queen's Men". People, including men who stayed loyal to the Seven, are burned as sacrifices. The Red Faith, as Mel reveals, sees death as evil.

I can see the parallels with Stannis and Ar-pharazon in that aspect. Ar-pharazon was a great man, powerful, exceptionally handsome, a brilliant commander. He was a lot greater, more powerful and beloved than Stannis could ever hope to be, but Sauron converted him to worship Melkor.

Davos kind of parallels Elendil/Amandil. The old faithful good friend of the king, who is loyal, but is trying to get him away from Sauron/Melisandre. Except burning the Weirwoods is a good way to stop greenseers spying on you where as Nimloth represented Ar-pharazon's line.

EDIT

I still don't see any connection between the Dunedain and the First Men or the Rangers and the Starks. Please elaborate.

[Morienthar]

I still don't see any connection between the Dunedain and the First Men or the Rangers and the Starks. Please elaborate.

The Northmen were never really defeated,Neither were the men of Arnor.

The Northmen ruled the realm for over 8000 years the men of Arnor nearly did the same.

The Northmen have an exceptionally close relationship with nature or at least did,The Dunedain are the same.

Th Northmen are the ones who lifted the siege of Dragonstone Aragorn does the same for Gondor.

The Northmen remember stories though they believe them to be legends of the old times,The Dunedain are the keepers of such knowledge.

The only thing that connects the Targs and the men of Arnor is that they were Numenoreans in the begining and their home was destroyed.

[jpkellirl]

What about the Valyrians? You cant tell me that GRRM isn't paying homage to Elric of Melnibone with their background story...

[anon76returns]

They rejected it illegally and they know it. When Arvedui pointed out how Elendil was the acknowledged as the first High King of Gondor, they had nothing to say. It was political maneuvering and it hurt Gondor. We know if they had accepted then Gondor and Arnor would have risen to the glory of Aragorn's day. Also they had a home made hero, who had just saved the city. Later on they accept Aragorn's claim as High King, through Elendil

I'm not aware of any legal document to which Arvedui could have referred. Numenorean culture borrowed from three different Edain cultures, as well as the Noldor & Sindar that inhabited Beleriand in the 1st age. According to which precedent did Elendil establish two separate realms? Did his High Kingship stem from a superior position of Arnor, or because he was the parent of the Kings in the South? Gondor argued the latter case, and that Isildur gave Gondor to the descendants of Anarien as a separate political state in perpetuity. Aragorn was immune to this argument since he was descended from both lineages (as were the children of Arvedui, but not Arvedui himself). You can say all you want about legality, but there was simply no precedent that we're alerted to by which Arvedui could have claimed the realm of his wife's ancestors.

Elendil was descended from the eldest daughter of the King. At the time they had yet to change the rule to make the eldest child inherit the throne. The ring of Barahir was given as a token of Silmarien's high heritage. No Elendil left his Numenor very, very shortly before the flood, because the King was attacking the gods. There was no prophecy simply common sense.

OK, not cadet branch in the literal sense, but in the sense that they are descended from the royal family without inheritance of the title/rod. And yes, receiving the Ring (and Narsil) is a bit of a contrivance to keep these relics present in 3rd age Middle Earth. Silmarien came 500 years after the beginning of the 2nd age- if other 'high heritage' offspring who never succeeded to the throne were similarly well recompensed over the ensuing 3000 years, then the royal family would have been out of heirlooms.

And yes, Elendil left Numenor at the behest of his father, who got wind of Ar-pharazon's plans and intuited what that would mean for the island. This pretty directly parallels Danaerys' pleas to her father to get out of Valyria before the Doom. GRR Martin remains agnostic about deities in his world, but by referring to it in world as "The Doom" there is a strong evocation of Divine Judgement on the Valyrians, exactly as in the case of Numenor.

I am not aware that Valyria had a Ruling House, they were a Freehold and had a few powerful Dragon Lords, who wielded the power. The Targaryens were of that ilk. The Targaryen's went and conquered their new empire like the Kings Men would have done, forcing people to kneel. Elendil and the faithful landed on an inhabited land or land inhabited by people of Numenorean origin. These people were happy to pronounce them as Kings.

It did not have a single ruling house, but rather several noble houses that vied for power. At any given time one family had more power than the others. The Targaryens were one of these noble families, but not one of the most powerful, so, like the Lords of Andunie they could carry on the nobility of their lost homeland, thought they themselves were not the royal families at the time of the respective falls.

Elendil landed on some sparsely populated lands, but that they were completely uninhabited is a pleasant fiction belied by the Dunlendings and the Dead men of Dunharrow. But this is all niggling- the noble family fleeing the destruction of a homeland in order to establish a kingdom elsewhere is a clear parallel between Elendil's family and house Targaryen. Your assertion that the Targaryens more closely resemble the Kings men because of the conquest is a much weaker parallel, all things considered.

Well not very well, he makes many mistakes when talking about it and you often get the impression that he is talking about the film. I never said he was only aware of Tolkien, because of the movies, I said he often seems to confuse the two and does not seem to have knowledge of all the background history surrounding the characters. Questioning whether Aragorn would make a good king cannot come from someone, who had a good knowledge of Aragorn's back history. He is as sure a bet to be a good king as anybody else.

I'm not at all familiar with these quotes by Martin that you're alluding to, but I do keep in mind that an author receiving pop-quizzes on the minutia of another author's fantasy world while busy doing publicity for their own work is hardly a fit metric for judgement. Certainly in the interviews I've seen his off-the cuff knowledge about Middle Earth and biographical information about Tolkien has been impressive. And I take him at his word when he says that Tolkien was very influential on his early development as a writer, decades before the movies were released.

[mrunderhill]

The Northmen were never really defeated,Neither were the men of Arnor.

The Northmen ruled the realm for over 8000 years the men of Arnor nearly did the same.

The Northmen have an exceptionally close relationship with nature or at least did,The Dunedain are the same.

Th Northmen are the ones who lifted the siege of Dragonstone Aragorn does the same for Gondor.

The Northmen remember stories though they believe them to be legends of the old times,The Dunedain are the keepers of such knowledge.

The only thing that connects the Targs and the men of Arnor is that they were Numenoreans in the begining and their home was destroyed.

Arnor was defeated. They had their cities destroyed, their capital burnt and most of their people killed. Gondor came to destroy their enemies though.

The Dunedain ruled Arnor for about 2000 years before Aragorn reformed the kingdom a 1000 years later. The Dunedain were not the original rulers of Anor, but took over the place.

The Dunedain do not have that strong a connection with nature.

Stannis was the one, who laid siege to Dragonstone. i think you meant Storm's End. That was hardly an important battle since the war was pretty much over. How does that compare to Aragorn saving Minas Tirith?

If the Dunedain know the true stories and the Northmen believe that they are only legends then surely that is a difference and not similarity?

The similarities are very superficial and forced in my opinion.

[mrunderhill]

I'm not aware of any legal document to which Arvedui could have referred. Numenorean culture borrowed from three different Edain cultures, as well as the Noldor & Sindar that inhabited Beleriand in the 1st age. According to which precedent did Elendil establish two separate realms? Did his High Kingship stem from a superior position of Arnor, or because he was the parent of the Kings in the South? Gondor argued the latter case, and that Isildur gave Gondor to the descendants of Anarien as a separate political state in perpetuity. Aragorn was immune to this argument since he was descended from both lineages (as were the children of Arvedui, but not Arvedui himself). You can say all you want about legality, but there was simply no precedent that we're alerted to by which Arvedui could have claimed the realm of his wife's ancestors.

First of Numenor had their own laws different from the Edain, the Noldor and the Sindar though they borrowed and learnt from all of those.

Elendil did not establish two separate kingdoms, it was all one realm. He was acknowledged as the High King by everyone, by both Arnor and Gondor. His High Kingship stemmed from the fact that he was the rightful King of all Numenoreans with the death of the Ar-pharazon and his allies. He was leader of the faithful. People like the Dol Amroth's bowed to the leader of the Numenoreans; Elendil. The survivors of Numenor saw themselves as a continuation of Numenor. Therefore they wanted the legal king of Numenor to rule over them. Gondor did not argue about this they just ignored it. They rejected the claim of Arvedui through Firiel, which itself was debateable. Then they said that Isildur gave up his kingship of Gondor, which was false and a lie. Documents show that isildur went to take up the High Kingship of his father. Unforunately with all of his greatest lords dying on the journey, Valandil did not have the power to pursue the matter when Meneldil took complete control. When Arvedui mentions how he is still Elendil's heir, they cannot even pretend to claim Elendil was not the first King of Gondor or argue he ever relinquished his rights. At this point the Council have no reply, because there is nothing they can argue. They just elect Earnil as king.

There is a clear precedent for what should have happened and certain figures in Gondor ie the Stewards manipulated things. The fact that we know both realms would have prospered had the correct choice been made is testimony enough.

OK, not cadet branch in the literal sense, but in the sense that they are descended from the royal family without inheritance of the title/rod. And yes, receiving the Ring (and Narsil) is a bit of a contrivance to keep these relics present in 3rd age Middle Earth. Silmarien came 500 years after the beginning of the 2nd age- if other 'high heritage' offspring who never succeeded to the throne were similarly well recompensed over the ensuing 3000 years, then the royal family would have been out of heirlooms.

And yes, Elendil left Numenor at the behest of his father, who got wind of Ar-pharazon's plans and intuited what that would mean for the island. This pretty directly parallels Danaerys' pleas to her father to get out of Valyria before the Doom. GRR Martin remains agnostic about deities in his world, but by referring to it in world as "The Doom" there is a strong evocation of Divine Judgement on the Valyrians, exactly as in the case of Numenor.

No where is it said that they received Narsil from the royal line. We don't know how Elendil got Narsi he may have been gifted it by Gil-galad. It is only the ring of Barahir, that was passed to them. The Lords of Andunie were the second most powerful family and a law was soon passed in Numenor forcing members of the royal family to only marry other descendants. Factor in the low birthrate of the royal family and there probably were not many High Lords running around.

As I said the difference is Elendil left shortly before and was caught up in the sinking of Numenor.

It did not have a single ruling house, but rather several noble houses that vied for power. At any given time one family had more power than the others. The Targaryens were one of these noble families, but not one of the most powerful, so, like the Lords of Andunie they could carry on the nobility of their lost homeland, thought they themselves were not the royal families at the time of the respective falls.

Elendil landed on some sparsely populated lands, but that they were completely uninhabited is a pleasant fiction belied by the Dunlendings and the Dead men of Dunharrow. But this is all niggling- the noble family fleeing the destruction of a homeland in order to establish a kingdom elsewhere is a clear parallel between Elendil's family and house Targaryen. Your assertion that the Targaryens more closely resemble the Kings men because of the conquest is a much weaker parallel, all things considered.

Yes there is a parallel here, but Elendil was still the second most powerful man in Numenor and was the rightful king of Numenoreans. I never said all the land was unpopulated. I said that it was most inhabited by Numenorean emigrants or people that shared their ancestry (as did the Dunlendings) and accepted Elendil as their King. It was not a conquest like the Targaryens. Numenor controlled virtually all of the coast across the whole of Middle Earth. Ar-pharazon pretty much controlled the entire world. The Kings men men were the ones that went and conqueroed large empires and placed their leaders on top. Of course they died out and did not last as long, but they were more similar to the Targaryens.

The Kings Men were survivors of the Fall, who went and carved out great empires and forced people to accept them as kings.

I'm not at all familiar with these quotes by Martin that you're alluding to, but I do keep in mind that an author receiving pop-quizzes on the minutia of another author's fantasy world while busy doing publicity for their own work is hardly a fit metric for judgement. Certainly in the interviews I've seen his off-the cuff knowledge about Middle Earth and biographical information about Tolkien has been impressive. And I take him at his word when he says that Tolkien was very influential on his early development as a writer, decades before the movies were released.

Two things that stand to mine is the claim that Aragorn would not make a good king.

The lack of worship in Tolkien's work. The men of Numenor do worship Eru. Aragorn is both the King and the High Priest, whilst Sauron is worshipped by his followers. The Fall of Numenor is about the High Priest of Eru turning to worshipping Morgoth. Tolkien actually considers Death to be the biggest theme of his work.

Then there are other quotes like claiming Tolkien's world is too black and white and smaller mistakes about Glamdring not being a special sword etc.

He may have been inspired by Tolkien, but he is not overly familiar with his other works it seems except for LOTR.

[Morienthar]

Arnor was defeated. They had their cities destroyed, their capital burnt and most of their people killed. Gondor came to destroy their enemies though.

The Dunedain ruled Arnor for about 2000 years before Aragorn reformed the kingdom a 1000 years later. The Dunedain were not the original rulers of Anor, but took over the place.

The Dunedain do not have that strong a connection with nature.

Stannis was the one, who laid siege to Dragonstone. i think you meant Storm's End. That was hardly an important battle since the war was pretty much over. How does that compare to Aragorn saving Minas Tirith?

If the Dunedain know the true stories and the Northmen believe that they are only legends then surely that is a difference and not similarity?

The similarities are very superficial and forced in my opinion.

Yes,But that was an after fact of the war....not during it.

The Northmen took over from CotF

The tree that withers,incredible rangers.

Sorry about that Storms end,It might not have been important,but Eddard riding in to save the capital of the to be king is similar in many ways.

There are some Northmen who do know the true stories just enough people don't believe them.

[mrunderhill]

Yes,But that was an after fact of the war....not during it.

The Northmen took over from CotF

The tree that withers,incredible rangers.

Sorry about that Storms end,It might not have been important,but Eddard riding in to save the capital of the to be king is similar in many ways.

There are some Northmen who do know the true stories just enough people don't believe them.

They were kind of losing the war until Gondor stepped in. Hard to say you won a war when the majority of your people are wiped out and all your principal cities. It was mutual destruction of both realms.

The difference is the Northmen consider themselves natives to the land. The Dunedain still call themselves the Dunedain ie Men of the West, the Exiles etc. Also the original settlers such as the men of Bree are still around.

Robert didn't make Storm's end the capital he kept Kings Landing. Aragorn was sailing in to save the realm. Ned was completing a formality. When people sing about the greatest battle of the war, they mention the Trident not Storm's End.

I can see the comparisons between the Rangers and the Night's Watch.

[Morienthar]

Also the original settlers such as the men of Bree are still around.

I was really pissed off about that after reading all his books,the origins of men and hobbits never really gets elaborated....

Why are the Bree men the first and Hobbits are a pat on the back for evolution??

[mrunderhill]

I was really pissed off about that after reading all his books,the origins of men and hobbits never really gets elaborated....

Why are the Bree men the first and Hobbits are a pat on the back for evolution??

They are expanded on in other books. Yes basically Hobbits are just a subspecies of men, who became really small. They are relatively new comers to Arnor.

The guys from Bree and other surrounding areas moved their before Numenor was ever founded. They are related to the Numenoreans though.

According to their own tales they were the original inhabitants and were the descendants of the first Men that ever wandered into the West of the middle-world. Few had survived the turmoils of the Elder Days ; but when the Kings returned again over the Great Seas they had found the Bree-men still there, and they were still there now, when the memory of the old Kings had faded into the grass."

[thecryptile]

I thought the Bree Men were cousins to the Dunlendings.

[mrunderhill]

I thought the Bree Men were cousins to the Dunlendings.

They have relations to them and the Dunlendings are related to the Original Men to come there. In fact the Dunlendings are related to the Edain/Numenoreans of Haleth's descent. The Numenoreans were just racist, because they no longer looked like them and confused that their languages shared no similarities.