Does the Story of the Dunedain and the Northmen seem similar or is is just me?

[Morienthar]

Just a question,the two men of the North why do their stories seem similar to me.

[Lord Freypie]

Hum ? Dunedain come from the first men.

Aragorn live in the north.

Robert has a little something of Theoden (except there is no Gandalf to cure him).

[Morienthar]

Also,They were the Kings once,they swear by the Valar,Though there is no worship in middle earth.

They also have a lot in common with the Targs btw,what with the Doom of Numenor and all that.

[RhaenysBee]

Hum ? Dunedain come from the first men.

Aragorn live in the north.

Robert has a little something of Theoden (except there is no Gandalf to cure him).

Ah, don't offend poor Theoden. Robert has a little more of Denethor, if I have to mention somebody...

As for Gandalf, it'd be nice if he came along and smack a couple of people with his staff, like he smacked Denethor in the ROTK movie.

[Morienthar]

Ah, don't offend poor Theoden. Robert has a little more of Denethor, if I have to mention somebody...

As for Gandalf, it'd be nice if he came along and smack a couple of people with his staff, like he smacked Denethor in the ROTK movie.

Speaking of Gandalf,Is there a Gandalf of the process in ASoIaF?? a King Maker?

[Lord Varys' Pecker]

The Dunedain or descendants of Numenor actually remind me of Valyria/Targs. Ancient mystic/magic land destroyed by a cataclysm, immigrate to mainland, create the greatest dynasty that land ever saw, downfall of said dynasty, and an secret descendant trying to bring it back,

[thenedstark]

Dunedain are rangers protecting the North/the Shire. How does that match what the Starks/other northmen do?

Speaking of Gandalf,Is there a Gandalf of the process in ASoIaF?? a King Maker?

Varys, maybe?

[Morienthar]

Dunedain are rangers protecting the North/the Shire. How does that match what the Starks/other northmen do?

Varys, maybe?

Nights Watch....

and As for Varys he's doing it for himself mostly so very unlike Gandalf he;s more of a Saruman.

The Dunedain or descendants of Numenor actually remind me of Valyria/Targs. Ancient mystic/magic land destroyed by a cataclysm, immigrate to mainland, create the greatest dynasty that land ever saw, downfall of said dynasty, and an secret descendant trying to bring it back,

The Targ analogy would fit Gondorians but the men of Arnor which the Dunedain are,are the rightful Kings of the land and also have a special connection to a certain tree.

[anon76returns]

Nights Watch....

and As for Varys he's doing it for himself mostly so very unlike Gandalf he;s more of a Saruman.

The Targ analogy would fit Gondorians but the men of Arnor which the Dunedain are,are the rightful Kings of the land and also have a special connection to a certain tree.

"Gondorians" and "Arnorians" (later "Arthedainians", "Cardolinians" and "Rhudauri") are both equally Dunedain, which is just the Sindarin equivalent of Numenoreans, both meaning literally "Men of the West". They are the same people, and at one point I believe they shared a contigous border through what later became the Gap of Rohan. Arnoreans are no more 'rightful kings of the land' than those from Gondor. The Arnorean royal family was somewhat more successful in surviving than their southern counterparts, if that's what you mean, but both dynasties were joined in ~TA1980 by the marriage of Arvedui of Arthedain to Firiel of Gondor, so again it makes little sense to try and distinguish here between what is really a single group.

In any case, as other posters have already pointed out, the Dunedain (North and South) are more similar to the Targaryen family, and both authors have explicitly linked their respective mythology to that of Atlantis, as well as implicitly to the Roman Empire.

The Rangers of the North and the Night's Watch do share some similarities, but we should not confuse the Night's Watch with Northerners or the Stark family in particular.

[mrunderhill]

"Gondorians" and "Arnorians" (later "Arthedainians", "Cardolinians" and "Rhudauri") are both equally Dunedain, which is just the Sindarin equivalent of Numenoreans, both meaning literally "Men of the West". They are the same people, and at one point I believe they shared a contigous border through what later became the Gap of Rohan. Arnoreans are no more 'rightful kings of the land' than those from Gondor. The Arnorean royal family was somewhat more successful in surviving than their southern counterparts, if that's what you mean, but both dynasties were joined in ~TA1980 by the marriage of Arvedui of Arthedain to Firiel of Gondor, so again it makes little sense to try and distinguish here between what is really a single group.

In any case, as other posters have already pointed out, the Dunedain (North and South) are more similar to the Targaryen family, and both authors have explicitly linked their respective mythology to that of Atlantis, as well as implicitly to the Roman Empire.

The Rangers of the North and the Night's Watch do share some similarities, but we should not confuse the Night's Watch with Northerners or the Stark family in particular.

Pretty much correct except the Arnorian royal family are the rightful High Kings of all the lands since Isildur and Elendil were High Kings.

I would say the Targaryens have more similarities with the Kings Men of Numenor than Elendil's faithful.

The Night's Watch does seem like a cross between the French Foreign Legion and the Rangers of the North. The Rangers of the North protect their realm from monsters, which the average person does not believe exist. Nobody knows much about them and they get scorn for their bravery.

However, Martin does seems no more than someone casually acquainted with the books and seems to base most of his opinions on the film rather than the book such as questioning whether Aragorn would be a good king or not.

[RhaenysBee]

Speaking of Gandalf,Is there a Gandalf of the process in ASoIaF?? a King Maker?

Dunedain are rangers protecting the North/the Shire. How does that match what the Starks/other northmen do?

Varys, maybe?

Yeah, Varys... sort of... But Gandalf had balls and that made a huge difference.

[Corvo Attano]

I would have said The CoTF and The Falmer Snow Elves (from The Elder Scrolls) had more similarities than the Dunedain & FM

[anon76returns]

Pretty much correct except the Arnorian royal family are the rightful High Kings of all the lands since Isildur and Elendil were High Kings.

Of course, that line of reasoning was rejected by the Gondorians themselves in the 20th century of the 3rd age when they rejected Arvedui's claim to the Gondorian throne. Considering that the Southern Kingdom survived as a functioning political entity for over 1000 years after its Northern sibling ceased to exist, I find claims of Arnor's superiority over Gondor to be rather more theoretical than practical.

I would say the Targaryens have more similarities with the Kings Men of Numenor than Elendil's faithful.

I would say exactly the opposite. Elendil was descended from a cadet branch from Elros' line (though somehow they managed to land the Ring of Barahir, talk about convenient). Similarly, the Targaryens were a noble house in Valyria, but not THE noble house. Also, both the Targaryens and the Elendili left their respective homelands prior to the doom to establish holdings from which they later created kingdoms, and did so at the prophetic behest of members of their families (Amandil for the Numenoreans, Danaerys the Dreamer for the Valyrian family). Pretty much a dead match.

However, Martin does seems no more than someone casually acquainted with the books and seems to base most of his opinions on the film rather than the book such as questioning whether Aragorn would be a good king or not.

Are you kidding me? Martin has been avidly reading LotR for decades, and has repeatedly said that LotR were inspirational to him as a young writer. He rattles off detailed biographical information about Tolkien off the top of his head during interviews. Thinking that a man who has been writing Fantasy since the 1970s only became aware of Tolkien because of the movies is crazy talk.

[Beorn Snow]

However, Martin does seems no more than someone casually acquainted with the books and seems to base most of his opinions on the film rather than the book such as questioning whether Aragorn would be a good king or not.

Yes, how dare he question Aragorn....

In reality, how good of a king do you think Aragorn would make? I know he works in LOTR but in a world like asoiaf he´d be a total Ned Stark.

[anon76returns]

Yes, how dare he question Aragorn....

In reality, how good of a king do you think Aragorn would make? I know he works in LOTR but in a world like asoiaf he´d be a total Ned Stark.

The Northmen seemed pretty happy with Ned Stark as their Lord Paramount, and he didn't even have to defeat a literal incarnation of evil in order to restore his dynasty.

[mrunderhill]

Yes, how dare he question Aragorn....

In reality, how good of a king do you think Aragorn would make? I know he works in LOTR but in a world like asoiaf he´d be a total Ned Stark.

Let's put it this way. Some people think Aegon would make a good king, because he spent the first 16 years of his life being instructed on how to view kingship as a duty and being educated. Others think that Jon would make a good king, because he has spent time fighting monsters, trying to destroy the world of men. Others might point to Renly, because he is charismatic and makes people love him. Others might give it to Tywin, because he has experience as the Hand of the King and made the realm prosperous. Others say Ned, because he is a noble man. Or maybe even Robb, because he is a military genius. Or Rhaegar, because he loved history and poetry and excelled at everything he did. Or maybe Jaime, because he is the greatest fighter in the land.

Aragorn's life experience is like all of those nominees combined in one person.

He spends the first 20 years of his life being educated by the wisest man in the world, in the greatest library in the world. He is taught combat by fighters far superior to any man. He has an accurate account of his people's history and their failings. He learns a king should serve his people and has actual fighting experience unlike Aegon.

Then after 20 he spends some time like Jon Snow. He selflessly commands a bunch of men for many years to protect the realm against monsters. These are hard men and they work tirelessly. In return for saving the realm, they get scorn and are insulted.

Then he heads South and becomes a 'sellsword' fights in Rohand with his countries allies and learns their language and culture.

After that he heads to the land he wants to rule and rises up to become the chief councilor of the Steward(King). He is the most loved man in the kingdom, a brilliant military leader and the kings go to man for all matters. He is basically the Hand of the King and does a brilliant job. His finest moment is when he destroys an enemy fleet, wins a great victory and saves the city.

After that he travels as a spy to enemy countries learning about their policies customs, languages and intent to fight Gondor.

Then he travels across his entire realm learning all about the land and the people.

If that he returns at his countries darkest hour to save the kingdom from destruction and win the love of the people and the nobility.

Also he marries a wise, beautiful woman, who brings in rich and powerful allies to his realm and by her birthright increase the land he rules over.

Now add to that his impeccable character, his intellect, his charisma, being the greatest warrior in the land, a magic palantir to overlook his realm he is as a good a bet to be a great king as you can find.

Of course, that line of reasoning was rejected by the Gondorians themselves in the 20th century of the 3rd age when they rejected Arvedui's claim to the Gondorian throne. Considering that the Southern Kingdom survived as a functioning political entity for over 1000 years after its Northern sibling ceased to exist, I find claims of Arnor's superiority over Gondor to be rather more theoretical than practical.

They rejected it illegally and they know it. When Arvedui pointed out how Elendil was the acknowledged as the first High King of Gondor, they had nothing to say. It was political maneuvering and it hurt Gondor. We know if they had accepted then Gondor and Arnor would have risen to the glory of Aragorn's day. Also they had a home made hero, who had just saved the city. Later on they accept Aragorn's claim as High King, through Elendil

I would say exactly the opposite. Elendil was descended from a cadet branch from Elros' line (though somehow they managed to land the Ring of Barahir, talk about convenient). Similarly, the Targaryens were a noble house in Valyria, but not THE noble house. Also, both the Targaryens and the Elendili left their respective homelands prior to the doom to establish holdings from which they later created kingdoms, and did so at the prophetic behest of members of their families (Amandil for the Numenoreans, Danaerys the Dreamer for the Valyrian family). Pretty much a dead match.

Elendil was descended from the eldest daughter of the King. At the time they had yet to change the rule to make the eldest child inherit the throne. The ring of Barahir was given as a token of Silmarien's high heritage. No Elendil left his Numenor very, very shortly before the flood, because the King was attacking the gods. There was no prophecy simply common sense.

I am not aware that Valyria had a Ruling House, they were a Freehold and had a few powerful Dragon Lords, who wielded the power. The Targaryens were of that ilk. The Targaryen's went and conquered their new empire like the Kings Men would have done, forcing people to kneel. Elendil and the faithful landed on an inhabited land or land inhabited by people of Numenorean origin. These people were happy to pronounce them as Kings.

Are you kidding me? Martin has been avidly reading LotR for decades, and has repeatedly said that LotR were inspirational to him as a young writer. He rattles off detailed biographical information about Tolkien off the top of his head during interviews. Thinking that a man who has been writing Fantasy since the 1970s only became aware of Tolkien because of the movies is crazy talk.

Well not very well, he makes many mistakes when talking about it and you often get the impression that he is talking about the film. I never said he was only aware of Tolkien, because of the movies, I said he often seems to confuse the two and does not seem to have knowledge of all the background history surrounding the characters. Questioning whether Aragorn would make a good king cannot come from someone, who had a good knowledge of Aragorn's back history. He is as sure a bet to be a good king as anybody else.

[Beorn Snow]

Aragorn is also someone with a lifespan of 200 years. The only one anything like that in asoiaf is bloodraven, and maybe melisandre.

I didn´t say Aragorn wasn´t a good king for Gondor or the world of Tolkien. I´m just pointing out that asoiaf is a very different world with a very different set of rules.

[mrunderhill]

Aragorn is also someone with a lifespan of 200 years. The only one anything like that in asoiaf is bloodraven, and maybe melisandre.

I didn´t say Aragorn wasn´t a good king for Gondor or the world of Tolkien. I´m just pointing out that asoiaf is a very different world with a very different set of rules.

Yes Aragorn died at 210. The thing is Martin questions why we should believe Aragorn would be a good king, which when you look at his history is a ridiculous statement.

The ASOIAF world is not too different from Tolkien's world. Arnor split up due to infighting and political games. Gondor had an internal kinstrife lasting many years. The hold the steward held on certain Lords was loose to say the least. The Princes of Dol Amroth were the second highest nobility after the king both in Aragorn's reformed kingdom and previously. They were higher up the chain than the Stewards and it annoyed them to have to listen. They ruled virtually independently. Aragorn has experience over many different kingdoms. He would play the Game of Thrones like an expert and be a fine King in Westeros too.

[Sun]

Yes, how dare he question Aragorn....

In reality, how good of a king do you think Aragorn would make? I know he works in LOTR but in a world like asoiaf he´d be a total Ned Stark.

To answer your own question correctly you need to re-read LOTR along with the appendices this time.

[mrunderhill]

To answer your own question correctly you need to re-read LOTR along with the appendices this time.

Very true. Aragorn and Gandalf play the game very well. For instance Aragorn leading the Fellowship after Gandalf's death shows Boromir not only accepted Aragorn as Isildur's heir but had to submit to him. Not entering the city whilst the war was going on. Only asking to be proclaimed as a Lord of Gondor, making Imrahil be the one to ask for him to be named king.

As for the Ned Stark comparisons, apart from both being honourable they are not alike at all. Aragorn's sense of honour is very different from Neds. One of Aragorn's greatest victories was sneaking into Umbar and burning their fleet, something Ned would never do. Showing common sense and sparing Beregond, though technically the law demanded his death.

Aragorn would not have had Varys and Littlefinger watched and probably dismissed them both, taken Renly's advice to capture Joffrey, told Robert the truth, researched Jon Aryyn's activities in disguise, entered the tournament to win favour with the crowd etc.