[Book Spoilers] Arya and the Wolf

[Impish]

As they have said that they are only showing Bran dreams I doubt we will get Arya's

True, but consider: IF the rule is actually "Only Bran dreams, UNTIL Arya/Nymeria pulls Cat from the water for S3 finale", they'd hardly tell us the 2nd part, now would they? ;)

So I'm holding out hope... because her animal sense becomes pretty important to her assassin training later. They BETTER not leave that out. Arya is becoming a supernaturally gifted super-assassin, dammit. I will accept no substitues.

You don't set something up so markedly early in a season if you are not going to pay it off for a long time

Heh, this is exactly why many people (myself included) were formerly entertaining the notion of the PW this season... clearly it's not happening at this point, but man they've been talking about Joff & Marg's wedding FOREVER now. Since the end of season 2, in fact.

[go joff go]

I don't really consider wolf dreams to be real dreams though, more of a latent warging. I think when they say no dreams I think they mean real dreams.

[polarbear]

I don't think we will see Cat being resurrected next episode. As others have pointed out, it gives the game away too soon, especially since we won't see Lady Stoneheart do anything for another ten episodes. Also, too many fans will be really upset that Rob doesn't get brought back to life too.

Finally, and most importantly, it undermines the tragedy of this week's episode's closing scene if they reverse it so soon.

Think about when Mr. Spock died in Star Trek: The wrath of Khan. It was a shocking and emotionally devastating scene...right? Now imagine if , just after Spock died, Dr. McCoy said " Hang on folks, all I need is a few drops of Khan' s super-blood and I can bring him back to life!"

It would be awful! The audience would feel like the writers were toying with them. (Warning: Do not go to see Star Trek Into Darkness!)

This is how I see it going down next week. The Brotherhood approach the Blue Fork river. They see all the Red Wedding guests washed up along the shore. There is a close-up of Cat in the water. Maybe Thoros recognizes her and groans in anguish.

And that's it. Stop. No more

Smart viewers will remember the power of the Lord of Light, and that will give them food for hope and speculation for next ten months. The seeds have been planted, but the flower hasn't suddenly burst out of the ground and been shoved in everybody's face.

[King Tommen]

That sounds terrible dramatically.

The resurrection needs to be shown. If Cat suddenly shows up as a zombie killing machine then you better damn well show everyone how it happened otherwise you run the risk of fans calling it one of the dumbest, lamest twists of all time.

Once again, we've got people complaining about something almost exclusively because it wasn't done that way in the books which means that there is no other alternative that would work on screen.

I for one, would love for the show to actually dramatize Beric's death and sacrifice since it's a pretty huge deal and it wraps up a storyline they've been discussing all season. Having Thoros say 2 years later that "Oh yeah, Beric sacrificed himself, it was a big deal, but you don't need to see that." is bad storytelling.

[StannisEndGame]

That sounds terrible dramatically.

The resurrection needs to be shown. If Cat suddenly shows up as a zombie killing machine then you better damn well show everyone how it happened otherwise you run the risk of fans calling it one of the dumbest, lamest twists of all time.

Once again, we've got people complaining about something almost exclusively because it wasn't done that way in the books which means that there is no other alternative that would work on screen.

I for one, would love for the show to actually dramatize Beric's death and sacrifice since it's a pretty huge deal and it wraps up a storyline they've been discussing all season. Having Thoros say 2 years later that "Oh yeah, Beric sacrificed himself, it was a big deal, but you don't need to see that." is bad storytelling.

I agree

[mystikherb]

True, but consider: IF the rule is actually "Only Bran dreams, UNTIL Arya/Nymeria pulls Cat from the water for S3 finale", they'd hardly tell us the 2nd part, now would they? ;)

This. Exactly this.

I think if we're reading between the lines, only "Bran" dreams should be taken as only warg dreams. ;]

(Or maybe supernatural dreams, that is to say that we will not see any dreams to the effect of "oh, that's what's going on in their subconscious mind).

[mystikherb]

The resurrection needs to be shown. If Cat suddenly shows up as a zombie killing machine then you better damn well show everyone how it happened otherwise you run the risk of fans calling it one of the dumbest, lamest twists of all time.

I'm not going to mention all of the reasons I disagree why the resurrection needs to be shown (in fact I feel the exact opposite). I've typed that out way too much. What I'd like to point out is that as long as Thoros and the brotherhood are with her, nothing needs to be spelled out. It will still work.

[King Tommen]

I'm not going to mention all of the reasons I disagree why the resurrection needs to be shown (in fact I feel the exact opposite). I've typed that out way too much. What I'd like to point out is that as long as Thoros and the brotherhood are with her, nothing needs to be spelled out. It will still work.

And Beric? What happened to him? Shouldn't we the audience see this?

[mystikherb]

And Beric? What happened to him? Shouldn't we the audience see this?

I see what you're saying, but we didn't see Beric leave in the book (at least not at all that I remember). It's not that hard to explain... Maybe something like Thoros saying "The brotherhood has a new leader now..." before reveal LS, having more of an explanation of what happened to Beric in the next season. Or that could just completely explain everything in season 4. I don't feel like the question of "Where's Beric" is going to be too prevalent once the Unsullied see an Un-Dead Catelyn back for revenge.

[Khal-a-bunga]

And Beric? What happened to him? Shouldn't we the audience see this?

No, because they can just tell the audience. Remember the first rule of film - tell don't show.

...oh, wait...

[Pinkie Baelish]

No, because they can just tell the audience. Remember the first rule of film - tell don't show.

...oh, wait...

I agree. Revealing the resurrection through monologue would be incredibly lame. Showing it, on the other hand, could make for a very powerful ending for the season.

[victim]

Eh, we really, really don't need to see the resurrection. I mean, people on this board constantly complain that D&D spell everything out for us, yet at times that seems to be what they want. It's more or less an unnecessary scene, because the facts are all there in the lynching scene. Billy Wilder put it best: "Let the audience add up two plus two. They'll love you forever." The meaning of this? Don't tell the audience the answer, give them the tools to find it on their own. It makes things more complex, intriguing and enjoyable. We have enough information about the Brotherhood and Thoros' power to process why Cat is standing there in place of Beric.

I don't think I've ever seen a resurrection scene that wasn't extremely hammy, over the top, or just generally tiring. A hero breathes life into a victim and they wake up - it's Wachowski brothers/M. Night crap that doesn't belong in my beloved Game of Thrones. There's a reason why we didn't actually see Beric come back in Episode 5. If you really feel like we need another scene in there to understand what has happened, then they can add Beric and a group of the Brotherhood coming across the body of Cat, and he tells them that he knows her. Then cut away to a different scene, so we know but we don't know... Do you catch my drift?

[mystikherb]

Eh, we really, really don't need to see the resurrection. I mean, people on this board constantly complain that D&D spell everything out for us, yet at times that seems to be what they want. It's more or less an unnecessary scene, because the facts are all there in the lynching scene. Billy Wilder put it best: "Let the audience add up two plus two. They'll love you forever." The meaning of this? Don't tell the audience the answer, give them the tools to find it on their own. It makes things more complex, intriguing and enjoyable. We have enough information about the Brotherhood and Thoros' power to process why Cat is standing there in place of Beric.

I don't think I've ever seen a resurrection scene that wasn't extremely hammy, over the top, or just generally tiring. A hero breathes life into a victim and they wake up - it's Wachowski brothers/M. Night crap that doesn't belong in my beloved Game of Thrones. There's a reason why we didn't actually see Beric come back in Episode 5. If you really feel like we need another scene in there to understand what has happened, then they can add Beric and a group of the Brotherhood coming across the body of Cat, and he tells them that he knows her. Then cut away to a different scene, so we know but we don't know... Do you catch my drift?

That's pretty much exactly how I feel. Plus I couldn't imagine a better way to reveal her than the way the epilogue did.

[Nuttz]

No, because they can just tell the audience. Remember the first rule of film - tell don't show.

...oh, wait...

The first rule of film is that there are no rules.

Jaime's bathtub monologue is a great example of where telling was better than showing. I could imagine Thoros describing his best friend sacrificing himself being quite emotionally engaging, similar to Jaime's monologue. That said, seeing it actually could happen would be great to watch too. I have no idea which direction they'll take, each has its pros and cons.

[Khal-a-bunga]

The first rule of film is that there are no rules.

Jaime's bathtub monologue is a great example of where telling was better than showing. I could imagine Thoros describing his best friend sacrificing himself being quite emotionally engaging, similar to Jaime's monologue. That said, seeing it actually could happen would be great to watch too. I have no idea which direction they'll take, each has its pros and cons.

There are a metric shit ton of rules associated with film, though I honestly do get your point. But Game of Thrones isn't an experimental film or avant-garde cinema: It's a dramatic, serialized narrative meant to be consumed by a large scale audience. That doesn't mean the content can't challenge the viewers, or be intellectually and/or emotionally stimulating, but it does mean that there are certain hard-and-fast rules that will almost always be followed, if logistics allow.

As far as the bathtub scene, that's a very good point, but I think there's a distinct difference between a monologue and exposition that you're ignoring. Jaime's monologue served the purpose of developing Jaime as a character, since the creative team made the (wise) decision to avoid showing flashbacks. Thoros (or whomever, really) would simply be explaining what happened, in order to help the audience avoid any confusion. That's a power house moment for Jaime - we learn more about him during that speech than we have throughout the entirety of the show - and part of the reason that moment is so powerful is the intensity of the performance. I don't see any such benefit to having Thoros (or, again, whomever) tell the audience what happened. It robs Beric of a powerful moment; it robs Thoros of a potentially powerful moment; and it robs the audience of an additional shocking moment. Because the reality is that, even (when...) if they show Catelyn being resurrected this season, the vast majority of the audience will have 'forgotten' about that moment by next year - until they see her again. At which point they get an additional shock, a 'Fuck yeah!' moment when Lady Stoneheart takes out a Frey, and there's no (or very little) confusion.

So while I agree with your general point, I don't think the two situations are all that comparable. I'm not saying it can't work to leave the reveal for the end of next season, but I personally don't see why we can't get both.

[mystikherb]

So while I agree with your general point, I don't think the two situations are all that comparable. I'm not saying it can't work to leave the reveal for the end of next season, but I personally don't see why we can't get both.

The bottom line for me is that the first time reveal in the book is infinitely better than seeing her eyes open before that happens. Not to say it won't be good if they show her resurrection. I would honestly rather not have both... it just takes so much away from an awesome scene. I'm really hoping they don't go the "Avatar eye opening" route. It's not a question for me when they show it... it's how. ASOS revealed her the best way possible... As she's getting revenge. And as far as showing it this season... I know people say it's too soon for the hanging scene... I just don't see how moving that scene a bit earlier in the timeline will change anything about the over all GOT story.

With that in mind, I respectfully disagree that we should have both. I'll enjoy the scene for what it is if they go the "eye opening" route, but here's for hoping they stick with the epilogue, even if it means we wait til next year to see LS.

[victim]

The problem with the entire thing Khal-a-bunga, is it's a storyline that ultimately happens off-screen. We know Stoneheart is a menace to the Riverlands because we see the wake of her destruction, but apart from two times (as of ADwD) we don't really see her first hand. The producers need to accomplish a lot with a very little amount of time, and they can hit two birds with one stone by making it one big reveal instead of two.

Ah, there's an easier way to say this, they need to show Cat hanging a Frey now, because when we see the destruction in the Riverlands through another POV (Jaime, Brienne, Arya, Blackfish) it doesn't feel like an abandoned plot. If we see Cat resurrected, and then nothing again on her until we see her hang a Frey at some point next year, it just feels like empty time where they could have been showing what she's doing. No, in my mind, they need to get her doing what she does as fast as possible, or save it entirely for a much later reveal. They definitely can't do both.

[Nuttz]

There are a metric shit ton of rules associated with film, though I honestly do get your point. But Game of Thrones isn't an experimental film or avant-garde cinema: It's a dramatic, serialized narrative meant to be consumed by a large scale audience. That doesn't mean the content can't challenge the viewers, or be intellectually and/or emotionally stimulating, but it does mean that there are certain hard-and-fast rules that will almost always be followed, if logistics allow.

As far as the bathtub scene, that's a very good point, but I think there's a distinct difference between a monologue and exposition that you're ignoring. Jaime's monologue served the purpose of developing Jaime as a character, since the creative team made the (wise) decision to avoid showing flashbacks. Thoros (or whomever, really) would simply be explaining what happened, in order to help the audience avoid any confusion. That's a power house moment for Jaime - we learn more about him during that speech than we have throughout the entirety of the show - and part of the reason that moment is so powerful is the intensity of the performance. I don't see any such benefit to having Thoros (or, again, whomever) tell the audience what happened. It robs Beric of a powerful moment; it robs Thoros of a potentially powerful moment; and it robs the audience of an additional shocking moment. Because the reality is that, even (when...) if they show Catelyn being resurrected this season, the vast majority of the audience will have 'forgotten' about that moment by next year - until they see her again. At which point they get an additional shock, a 'Fuck yeah!' moment when Lady Stoneheart takes out a Frey, and there's no (or very little) confusion.

So while I agree with your general point, I don't think the two situations are all that comparable. I'm not saying it can't work to leave the reveal for the end of next season, but I personally don't see why we can't get both.

I prefer to call them guidelines as opposed to rules. There are most certainly no 100% rules because that just completely goes against the point of art in the first place. I wouldn't pu the "show don't tell" guideline among them anyway, I've always felt that was a pretty asinine statement as far as 'rules' go. It really is down to what works best for the scene. Honestly, either of the options works quite well, although they both have drawbacks.

[Khal-a-bunga]

The problem with the entire thing Khal-a-bunga, is it's a storyline that ultimately happens off-screen. We know Stoneheart is a menace to the Riverlands because we see the wake of her destruction, but apart from two times (as of ADwD) we don't really see her first hand. The producers need to accomplish a lot with a very little amount of time, and they can hit two birds with one stone by making it one big reveal instead of two.

Ah, there's an easier way to say this, they need to show Cat hanging a Frey now, because when we see the destruction in the Riverlands through another POV (Jaime, Brienne, Arya, Blackfish) it doesn't feel like an abandoned plot. If we see Cat resurrected, and then nothing again on her until we see her hang a Frey at some point next year, it just feels like empty time where they could have been showing what she's doing. No, in my mind, they need to get her doing what she does as fast as possible, or save it entirely for a much later reveal. They definitely can't do both.

We'll see how it works out. I'd say they definitely can, will, and should do both. I don't think 'two birds, one stone' really applies here, because if they do choose to bring Catelyn back in the finale, the intent and tone of the scene will probably be very different than that of her scene from the epilogue of the book. Also, you'll have to explain what you mean by "empty time". There's absolutely no rule that says we have to see what Lady Stoneheart is up to. All you'd have to do is have vague mentions of her scattered throughout a few episodes, then have her second appearance somewhere near the end of the season (or at the very end, if the writers felt that that made sense). I don't see where it takes much time away from anything else. Just four days left until the finale when we find out for sure, though.

I prefer to call them guidelines as opposed to rules. There are most certainly no 100% rules because that just completely goes against the point of art in the first place. I wouldn't pu the "show don't tell" guideline among them anyway, I've always felt that was a pretty asinine statement as far as 'rules' go. It really is down to what works best for the scene. Honestly, either of the options works quite well, although they both have drawbacks.

I think you're taking "Show, don't tell." a bit too literally. It's not about only using images to convey - ...nah'. This will explain what I meant (and what the saying itself means):

http://en.wikipedia....how,_don't_tell

[CakeOfTheMorning]

If Cat suddenly shows up as a zombie killing machine then you better damn well show everyone how it happened otherwise you run the risk of fans calling it one of the dumbest, lamest twists of all time.

It is already one of the lamest twists of all time. Whether they show it next episode or not. Hence why using it to show warg dreams (so viewer favourite Arya's wolf is alive and striving and she has a bad-ass power) and the ambiguity behind the discovery of the body (will they ressurect her? Is it just a dramatic twist to show the body to Arya and the brotherhood? Who were those men?) makes for a good cliff-hanger, as opposed to showing her coming back to life, which is more of a wtf? moment.