Death of House Frey

[Q the Cat]

And perhaps wolves on both sides as well, must deal with those running away. :P

Let's see House Frey be no more. Not by bloody revenge, but with some form of magic of westeros.

Ideally I'd like to see Arya return to westeros and master her warging skills in Nymeria. She could lead the wolf pack in hunting Freys. That combined with Lady Stoneheart leading the BwB in Frey hunts should be more than enough to ruin them.

[Q the Cat]

The Freys get to butcher their guests and desecrate the corpses, and the Lannisters get to reward them for it and profit from their own high treason/child murders etc, and the Starks are just supposed to take it because only they should feel obliged to stick to their word and suffer for the consequences of small-scale violations? Those massive betrayals are regularly praised as justified realpolitik or at least excused on the grounds that you shouldn't expect any more from people in this violent setting. But the instant that it looks like the Starks (or Stoneheart, since the others are nowhere near Freys or Lannisters) might, might end up doing to them a tiny bit of what they did to the Starks and other innocents or bystanders, suddenly it becomes awful.

Why shouldn't the Starks get to share the benefits of butchering people? Ned was ruined for trying to apply justice and compassion equally. Robb was ruined for trying to apologise for his error and offer the Freys something to compensate for their loss. But the characters who simply massacre their enemies and any unfortunates connected to them are on top of the world; when they run into troubles they get more merciful deaths or less severe setbacks. Yet the Starks should continue to act in a way that gets them nothing in return except contempt from people who praise Tywin for finishing wars? Unlike the Freys and the Lannisters the Starks at least tried justice. It didn't work, time to adopt the methods that GRRM shows as actually succeeding in this world and the readers approve of (Jaime tries to kill a child and doesn't give a damn = badass hero for the ages, Stoneheart might kill a young Lannister squire = monster how could she). If GRRM didn't want to inspire that kind of response, he wouldn't write books where it's shown again and again that murderers are more prosperous and avoid the worst of the karma that's merciless in punishing efforts to be compassionate and law-abiding.

When the Starks try to spare innocents and be just, they're morons who deserve to die for their mistakes. When it's speculated that they might kill innocents for revenge and to improve their political situation (...like the Freys and Lannisters have actually been doing on a large scale), they're awful people who deserve to die for their wickedness (but let's keep on praising the Lannisters for doing that very thing and defending the right of Frey innocents to live since they're somehow worthier than Stark innocents were). No way to win.

Well said. :agree:

The karma is due to House Frey for harming those who he was obligated to protect due to "Guest Rights".

[Q the Cat]

undead monster Catelyn has become

The Frey's created this undead monster. She should exact her toll the same as a Frey.

By calling for the deaths of innocent people, you're admiting that you think Ned was a fool, for taking the moral highground for all those years.

Calling for the deaths, but not by the hand of Starks. The death of House Frey should be karmic and magic - Stoneheart, wolves, dragons, Others, or just plain old RAT KING'ish.

[Lord Puff Fish]

The death of House Frey should be commemorated with a giant pie in the shape of a giant pie. Made of 100% pure Red Wedding Freys, of course (save Roslin).

[Q the Cat]

The Blackfish is going to kill them all: D) Attack the Twins and save Roslyn:

I think that this scenario will take place. Edmure told his uncle off Roslyns pregnancy. Edmure also told the BF that Roslyn sincerely loves him and that she didn’t want to take part in the RW. The BF also knows that Edmure’s child will never be save while the Lannisters occupy Riverrun. Especially when it’s a boy. And there are other bonuses he gets by attacking the Twins as well like for example liberating the nobles from the North and the Riverlands who are still held hostage, revenge on the Freys and a signal to the Realm. He will also have the advantage of surprise on his side.

Now how will this attack take place? Where will he find the troops to pull off such a daring attack? The answer is simple: Greywater Watch.

At Greywater watch he’ll find the soldiers of House Glover and Mormont who were sent there by Robb (+ survivors of the RW) and of course the Crannogmen.

The Crannogmen and the Freys off the crossing have had a feud for several centuries. And the Northerners hate the Frey for their betrayal. I think that the BF will propose this plan to attack the Twins and that Howland Reed will support it, even if the others are against it (He’s a pretty brave guy if you ask me). There might also be some sort of representative off the BwB there who pledges the brotherhood down for attack (In that case Hot Pie as their man on the inside could open the gates after the Crannogmen killed the watchers on the wall).

The actual attack itself will happen in the midst of the night. Crannogmen armed with poisoned arrows will kill off the guards, the BF and his outfit of crannogmen and Northerners are going to bust the Greatjon and the others out of jail and then they’ll rescue Roslyn. In the battle that follows inside the Twin most of Old Walder Freys descendants will be butchered and the Twins itself lit on fire (or at least half of it).

Oh yes - The Blackfish! He will inherit Riverrun and Edmure and Roslin get The Twins.

[Q the Cat]

I just happen to think that the Red Wedding was a vile war crime (because, harsh world or not, some acts are just wrong). As such, the perpetrators deserve to be dealt with. I also apply the same reasoning to the suggested massacre of perfectly innocent people. Harsh world or not, murdering Rickard Wylde for the sins of Walder Frey is utterly disgusting.

Even more than being a vile war crime, Frey violated Guest Right.

"to do so would be to break a sacred covenant that is believed to invoke the wrath of the Gods both old and new. Both the teachings of the old gods and the Faith of the Seven hold to this."

The massacre of House Frey will happen, but not out of revenge from the Stark or Manderly's. The wrath of the Gods will prevail, just like they did for the Rat King.

[grand old duke of stark]

Sending the innocent Frey males to the Wall and the females to the Silent Sisters idea seems quite fair. Normally I would be fair.

But there is something abnormal about the Freys, particularly Walder, that brings out my inner Gray, my ravenous ruthless side. As a house the Freys are offensive. But Walder, he has a nine-decade history of multiplying like a rabbit while thumbing his nose at loyalty, custom, and other qualities that hold civilized society together. In a way, his breaking guest-right, especially with his liege lord, and his massacre of Robb's troops at his very doorstep is actually the crowning achievement of his overall creepiness. He sees his children and children's children as an extension of himself and his twisted family values. There is a poison in Frey blood--even the most innocent of them could turn into another such monster. I feel that Walder didn't so much commit an abomination as revel in being an abomination.

So while I have no love for Lannisters, I'm willing to leave the 'innocent' Lions alone. But I cannot help but think that mankind and particularly Westeros would be better off if the Freys perished from this earth.

[Red Raven]

I think the question raised was since Guest Right protects the guest and host only if the guest eats of the hosts bread and salt, does it apply if the guest brings the bread and salt? Since the guest is still a guest and the host is still the host, but the bread and salt belong to the wrong party, did Guest Right ever apply?

I think that guest right must be asked for. It's the ceremony of it - a formal exchange of agreements - and not so much who supplies the food.

I don't remember where or who, but there was one instance where guest right was asked for and it was outright refused.

If the Tyrells never formally asked for guest right then they're completely off the hook from a visit from the Rat Cook. It could be said that Jaime also violated guest right when he pushed Bran out the window UNLESS King Robert never asked for guest right while staying with the Starks. Bob may have thought he didn't need to since he and Ned were old friends. (I don't remember if guest right was asked for or not and the book isn't handy). Also the Night's Watch and Craster, and the Lannisters who killed Ned's household and abused Sansa when they were in King's Landing.

[Bartimus Stone]

Old Man Frey has really hurt his House in the long run and i doubt he cares. All of his true borns and bastards all want a piece of his power now and even more when he is gone. He seems to care for none of his kin, they all name their children after him in hopes of receiving some favor. He has gone through more wives and women than anyone can count (possibly killing some wives along the way), so to shorten all this up, he has no Honor, he sets bad examples for his kin, and his heirs will inherit his greed, lust, and power seeking.

I figure before or after he is gone, as kin start dying by the hands of the zombie stark, the fighting amongst themselves for power will be their ruin. There will be a "Red Reunion" and they will slaughter themselves at it while the drum beats and old man Frey watches, possibly delighted by it.

[direwienerdog]

I think the house 'death' will be less literal. By the end of the story the Freys will have lost everything. They'll no longer be a noble house, they'll have lost the twins, their name will be cursed, and all the fighting over who'll be the next LORD Frey will be meaningless.

This is what I envision also. The Ser name Frey will be so accursed that the remaining Freys will change names. Those Freys already married to bannermen of the Tully's will survive, unless proved to had a hand in the Red Wedding.

The Twins will be given over to Riverrun to be awarded to a trusted ally.

Lord Walder, Black Walder and anyone who has had knowledge or participated in RW. Well Spikes,Heads, walls.

The Lannisters plot revenge.

The Starks plan Justice.

[greywind93]

i just want the twins to be over run with rats and the freys to get mauled to death by them after the rats eat all the food there. that way the rat break two of the sacred laws breaking guests right and kinslaying there weasel breathern

[direwienerdog]

The Frey's created this undead monster. She should exact her toll the same as a Frey.

Calling for the deaths, but not by the hand of Starks. The death of House Frey should be karmic and magic - Stoneheart, wolves, dragons, Others, or just plain old RAT KING'ish.

Oh I think we are seeing more and more karmic and creative killing of Freys.

From Lady SH's justice of hanging Freys,Lannnisters and Boltons.(however the original BwB was trying to protect the small folk from all thieves and murderers be they Lions, Wolves or whomever. This difference, I think, is why some of the brotherhood choose to leave.)

To Manderly's Frey pie.

I really hope they capture "The Late Lord Frey" so we can hear him rat out everyone involved. I can hear him give up all and speak without remorse already.

As for his death, well won't that be special.

For the Kill them all posters that is too much like the Lannisters for my taste.

The ruination of House Frey will suffice. Leave em to the small folk say I.

[direwienerdog]

Oh yes - The Blackfish! He will inherit Riverrun and Edmure and Roslin get The Twins.

Remember the BF is strong but really old and has no wife or heir. And I don't see the Twins being destroyed by any of the allies of the North/ Riverrun. Might be Lord Walder has it destroyed. He doesn't want anyone succeeding him, even his own relatives.

That would be Walder Frey's style. Lock all the women and children in with him and set fire to the place.

Horrifying enough for the kill em all folks too.

Edit: spelling,

[The Dragon & The Wolf]

Plotting revenge will still be tricky because Edmure & Roslin were shipped off to Casterly Rock were they not? Jaime said something about taking them there, maybe after the kid is born or something

[Lady Flandrensis]

Somewhere in the back of my mind I keep remembering GRRM saying there are no happy endings and if you want one you haven't paid attention. In Westeros, the ruthless survive and succeed. And so I hope with my heart and gut that the Freys don't end up on the Iron Throne.

[Rickon Stark King of Wintr]

Many people on the forum have been hoping for the complete annihilation of House Frey like the Reynes and Tarbecks because of their betrayal of Robb and their part in the Red Wedding. It seems that people think of house Frey as those few members who were involved like Lord Walder, Rymen, Black Walder and Edwyn but what of all the other Freys? Their are loyal ones like Robbs Squire Olyvar and Stevron who died for him as well as Edmures new wife Rosilin as well as many others who did not participate because of loyalty or simply because they are still children. Do the people of this forum realy want the entire death of every member of house frey down to the loyal, the women and children?

Yes.

[otherbeef]

Perwyn Frey also seems like a good guy, loyal to Robb.

[Winters]

Yes.

Now that's just ****** up.

[Red Raven]

Houses Reyne, Tarbeck, Darklyn, Hollard, Greystark, Woodfoot...were all put to the sword. The Freys wouldn't be the first and I doubt the last.

[honeyed chicken]

A couple more quotes:

p.626) ""Teason is a noxious weed," Pycelle declared solemnly. "It must be torn up, root and stem and seed, lest new traitors sprout from every roadside.""

p.636) Varys to Ned in the Red Keep's dungeons - "The High Septon once told me that as we sin, so do we suffer. If that's true, Lord Eddard, tell me. . . why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?"