Nights Watch Vows - The Power of the Words [Probably will contain Spoilers] [Long Post]

[Sevumar]

It still doesn't explain why Sam is there if he doesn't need to be.

It doesn't have to explain why Sam was there. Again, you'd have to ask Martin why he needed Sam to be there. What we know is that he was there and he opened the door.

Isn't Bran supposed to be the last Greenseer, suggesting they're not very thick on the ground. We haven't actually met or heard of any others.

We don't have the ability to tell for sure if Bloodraven and Bran are the last ones. The face on the gate is described like this, "The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed, and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that." If I had to guess, I'd say it sounds like whatever is attached to this is nearing the end of the line.

[Sevumar]

Sam is instructed by Coldhands to say the NW words to the gate to gain entry. Independently of this, Bran and Jojen receive instructions on getting to this gate via greendreams/ visions/ whatever you want to call it. You'd seriously think that if there were not something more to the oaths than either merely saying them or being recognized, that Martin would not have crafted this so that the obese Watchman is the one who said the words and not just given Bran some other way to get through the Wall.

I'm not sure that one has to follow from the other. You're the one injecting causation here, not me. The fact that Sam opens the door doesn't tell us much about the mechanics of what happens here.

Sam doesn't even pass through the goddam gate. He gives Bran + Co access to the area beyond the Wall. What purpose could it possibly serve to have Sam brought to the gate to act as a doorman if there weren't something else embedded into the words uttered by a specific speaker?

The idea that the words should be said by a sworn member of the NW doesn't tell us that the oath itself (much less the circumstances of its swearing) is magical. It doesn't tell us by what method the oath and the claim of the speaker are authenticated.

[daario's man]

It doesn't have to explain why Sam was there. Again, you'd have to ask Martin why he needed Sam to be there. What we know is that he was there and he opened the door.

But he is there through someone's (probably Bloodraven's) careful scheme. Why have him there if he isn't necessary? You can say I'd have to ask GRRM all you like but what is the point of this forum if not for speculation and debate? All I'm doing is looking at the evidence and coming to a likely conclusion. I'm not sure what you're doing.

[butterbumps!]

lol, this is fantastic. In lieu of coming to a logical conclusion by reading the books and deducing why a certain event is the way it is, the only way to know is to ask the author. Obviously, the logical explanation (which is incidentally also the one directly given to us by Coldhands via Sam) doesn't stand because Martin needs to confirm it before making conclusions from the text he wrote, despite being pretty conclusive in the way it's written.

[Ragnorak]

Sam specifically says the speaker must be a sworn brother and he indicates he received this information from Coldhands. There are several points in the book where characters make statements with certainty that later turn out not to be true. Inventing a magical quality to the oath and then concluding that's what's going on here isn't necessary to explain what happens.

It could be Bloodraven, or it could be another greenseer. We're not given enough to know who is attached to the gate. As for why it didn't happen any other way, you'd have to ask Martin. He's the only one who knows.

So because people lie in the series or speak out of ignorance elsewhere we're supposed to conclude that Bloodraven thought it was easier to send Coldhands after Sam and Gilly and run them across the Northern wasteland with while carrying warm blooded White Walker candy instead of telling Jojen to walk down a flight of stairs and calling up the tree guy running the Gate on the weirwood phone? If someone controls the weirwood gate the guy plugged into the weirwood network could just ask him to open the gate.

Coldhands tells him the phrase to open the hidden gate. He points out where the hidden gate is. he tells Sam he'd find people on the other side. The dead guy earns enough credibility to be taken at face value over the fairly minor detail of needing to be a sworn brother without starting Gategate over the gate.

If you want to claim there are other circumstances that are parallel or other mechanics in the series that are similar than start quoting and drawing out the logic connections. So far you seem to be saying that the magical gate opened by the magical words that only work for someone who actually swore the magical words as an oath can't be taken as proof that there is magic because the magical being who revealed the magical gate and the magical words can't be trusted since unreliable information exists. Seriously? Some hypothetical greenseer we've never seen or heard of controls the gate but somehow another greenseer can't just say "Hey, trying to save the world here. 'Let the kid through'" because that would be acknowledging that there is an actual circumstance in the text that happens to have a magical association with oaths? Really?

[daario's man]

:bang: I can't believe this is still going.

[Sevumar]

Do we know that Bloodraven was ever in contact with Jojen?

Coldhands tells him the phrase to open the hidden gate. He points out where the hidden gate is. he tells Sam he'd find people on the other side. The dead guy earns enough credibility to be taken at face value over the fairly minor detail of needing to be a sworn brother without starting Gategate over the gate.

I'm not saying that the knowledge he gives Sam is false, but it may not be all the information on how the gate works. We have a lot of instances of ancient knowledge being passed down in incomplete or partially incorrect states. All we know is that the information he gives Sam works, but not necessarily why.

If you want to claim there are other circumstances that are parallel or other mechanics in the series that are similar than start quoting and drawing out the logic connections. So far you seem to be saying that the magical gate opened by the magical words that only work for someone who actually swore the magical words as an oath can't be taken as proof that there is magic because the magical being who revealed the magical gate and the magical words can't be trusted since unreliable information exists.

It can't be taken as "proof" or evidence that the words are magical, no. The proposed "magical" nature of the oath is something invented by posters on this board in an attempt to explain how the gate works, without a supporting model in the story. However, we do have a model for how weirwoods and their powers/senses are controlled by greenseers.

[Sevumar]

Obviously, the logical explanation (which is incidentally also the one directly given to us by Coldhands via Sam) doesn't stand because Martin needs to confirm it before making conclusions from the text he wrote, despite being pretty conclusive in the way it's written.

The identity of the speaker as a Night's Watch member may matter. I'm not saying that it doesn't. But you don't seem to understand that if it does matter, it's not an indication that the oath is magical.

[butterbumps!]

I know, what was I thinking that the NW vows could have something beyond being merely words.

I suppose I missed all of those models that have been set up whereby access is gained by saying passwords into the doorknob. And not just any password, mind you, but passwords uttered by people who have sworn oaths, which comprise these doorknob passwords.

[the titan of westeros]

Yes the words of the watch contain a certain power, most of us believe that already but the op is trying to suggest that the NW acts as lightbringer due to its tremendous power. The key here being that the watch has been reforged, and broken twice now. Once when most of the rangers mutinied at Crasters' keep. The next when Bowen Marsh killed Jon. Now if the story follows its predecessor, something must be sacrificed for the watch to be reformed again. My guess is that Melisandre will be involved and may even sacrifice herself.

[Ragnorak]

I think it's important to realize a couple of things about this idea. The first is that we do not have any indication from the story that a spoken formula has any power in and of itself. The second is that there's no evidence that the Night's Watch oath ever changed.

This is where this whole thing started.

So what indication do we have from the story that some third party greenseer or other entity is controlling the gate? Please take whatever standard of proof you'd like to use for this discussion and apply it to the assertions you have made so we can have a baseline for this discussion.

Let's start with the evidence that some intelligent third party controls the Black Gate. Where is the evidence in the text for that or some other form of proof that is acceptable "evidence" in determining such things?

[redviper9]

Again, the quote tells us nothing but what Sam believes and because only Sam speaks, we don't have any way of testing alternate scenarios to see what it is about the conversation that satisfies the gate's requirements. It certainly tells us nothing about the value (if any) of where a NW oath is taken.

You know, this raises a good point about the entirety of the series.

Since we haven't met Howland Reed, we don't really know that he was there with Ned at the Tower of Joy, since all we have are Ned's "unverifiable" recollections from his POV. Cat only remembers that she gave up her maidenhood to Ned; no one else was in the room with them to verify, so who knows, right? And no one other than Arya saw Jaqen's face change, so are we really sure that she saw what she saw? Jon probably made up the Pink Letter, too -- after all, the illiterate Tormund is the only other person in the room, and no one else bothered to read the letter after Jon made his announcement. So Sam could clearly be speaking out of his behind when he claims that the Black Gate can only be opened by a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch.

Look, taking things with a grain of salt is great and all, especially when so many crackpot theories abound, but it does seem like some of your arguments are contrarian just for the sake of being contrarian. As butterbumps! succinctly summed it up:

lol, this is fantastic. In lieu of coming to a logical conclusion by reading the books and deducing why a certain event is the way it is, the only way to know is to ask the author. Obviously, the logical explanation (which is incidentally also the one directly given to us by Coldhands via Sam) doesn't stand because Martin needs to confirm it before making conclusions from the text he wrote, despite being pretty conclusive in the way it's written.

[Sevumar]

I know, what was I thinking that the NW vows could have something beyond being merely words.

I didn't say it wasn't possible, I just said that if this was the case, I'd expect there to be better grounding in the text. My issue with the proposed mechanic is that it strikes me as invented without any support from the text.

We have good reason to believe that weirwoods are magical, and they are or have been in the past, controlled by intelligent beings who are greenseers. That doesn't require a magical oath in order to work as a mechanism for opening the gate. So I'm asking you to explain why the magical oath is necessary.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I think the actual argument has been lost on some people.

What butterbumps is arguing is that Sam himself, isnt that important in terms of the Black Gate. Shes arguing that the potential reason why Sam could pass through it is, how he took his vows in the first place. It seems clear that not just any ol' Nights Watch guy could really pass through there. Coldhands was a ranger and had once said his vows. But his are not enough to open the Black Gate. If that was all it took, saying the words, wouldnt Coldhands be able to pass?

Sam having sworn his vows in the godswood seems to be the crux of the argument. That perhaps its this that holds the real power. Not the words themselves.

<_<

[Sevumar]

Let's start with the evidence that some intelligent third party controls the Black Gate. Where is the evidence in the text for that or some other form of proof that is acceptable "evidence" in determining such things?

The face on the gate is described like this, "It was white weirwood, and there was a face on it.

A glow came from the wood, like milk and moonlight, so faint it scarcely seemed to touch anything beyond the door itself, not even Sam standing right before it. The face was old and pale, wrinkled and shrunken. It looks dead. Its mouth was closed, and its eyes; its cheeks were sunken, its brow withered, its chin sagging. If a man could live for a thousand years and never die but just grow older, his face might come to look like that."

This description matches those of other faces on other weirwoods. In Dance, we learn that the trees with faces have greenseers at their roots and that this practice stretches back well into ancient time. We learn that this practice augments the greenseer's abilities and gives the greenseer access to the tree's perceptions.

It seems reasonable to conclude that this is the case with the weirwood Black Gate.

[butterbumps!]

The identity of the speaker as a Night's Watch member may matter. I'm not saying that it doesn't. But you don't seem to understand that if it does matter, it's not an indication that the oath is magical.

Sevumar, I understand quantitative analysis. In fact, my earlier post identified the variables and pointed out how a critical one remains untested wrt wight production.

As is the case of every argument you start with me, this is a perfect summation of the subsequent exchange:

Bumps: Here is textual analysis, quotes and logical deduction for my speculation

Sevumar: Null Hypothesis! We can't know this! It is not confirmed! There is no text support!

This is why I do not engage you in these debates. Quantitative analysis is not what one does in a literary forum when discussing literature. All you ever do is point out that something has no text support. THEN, when confronted textual support, you claim that the methodology is questionable, no matter what is presented to you. THEN you claim that we can't know because it's not confirmed or spelled out. You never give examples from the text to support your position for why you disagree, or even provide reasoning for the disagreement.

I believe in a healthy dose of skepticism, but there comes a point when all that's being said is "I disagree because it can't be proven" and this becomes rather obnoxious. So, duly noted, it's not confirmed.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

I think the actual argument has been lost on some people.

What butterbumps is arguing is that Sam himself, isnt that important in terms of the Black Gate. Shes arguing that the potential reason why Sam could pass through it is, how he took his vows in the first place. It seems clear that not just any ol' Nights Watch guy could really pass through there. Coldhands was a ranger and had once said his vows. But his are not enough to open the Black Gate. If that was all it took, saying the words, wouldnt Coldhands be able to pass?

Sam having sworn his vows in the godswood seems to be the crux of the argument. That perhaps its this that holds the real power. Not the words themselves.

<_<

Of course, Coldhands is a wight and, you know, the Wall is there to stop the Others and their minions...

[Sevumar]

It seems clear that not just any ol' Nights Watch guy could really pass through there. Coldhands was a ranger and had once said his vows. But his are not enough to open the Black Gate. If that was all it took, saying the words, wouldnt Coldhands be able to pass?

Sam having sworn his vows in the godswood seems to be the crux of the argument. That perhaps its this that holds the real power. Not the words themselves.

What I'm saying is that this does not follow clearly. Coldhands can't pass through the Wall because its magic prevents him from doing so. He's a wight, and while he may have been release from the control of the Others in some sense, the Wall still does not permit him to cross. The oath is not necessary to explain this.

Nothing about Sam saying the oath implies that the location where it was sworn matters. Even when he speaks about the oath, he doesn't specify that it had to be taken under certain conditions.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Of course, Coldhands is a wight and, you know, the Wall is there to stop the Others and their minions...

Sure. But Coldhands is a different sort of wight. Perhaps the Gate required a living NW member who had sworn their vows in the sight of the Old Gods. Coldhands himself still remains an enigma.

[redviper9]

I think the actual argument has been lost on some people.

What butterbumps is arguing is that Sam himself, isnt that important in terms of the Black Gate. Shes arguing that the potential reason why Sam could pass through it is, how he took his vows in the first place. It seems clear that not just any ol' Nights Watch guy could really pass through there. Coldhands was a ranger and had once said his vows. But his are not enough to open the Black Gate. If that was all it took, saying the words, wouldnt Coldhands be able to pass?

Sam having sworn his vows in the godswood seems to be the crux of the argument. That perhaps its this that holds the real power. Not the words themselves.

<_<

Since there is no more like button...brava!