Morienthar Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 And the point is that she doesn't always manage to end up in the so-called moral right *despite* her opponents being largely cardboard cutout villains. Will she turn away from it, or will she (or someone else) bring her down?I'm thinking that in the end, Tyrion will find another use for his crossbow, either against a dragon or against Daenerys... and how many people will cheer?I would but we'll have a quater man to go with a dead Dragon/or a dead dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Damian Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 When Dany's vision of her son, smiling at her, with almond skin, lilac eyes, there is a burning city behind him, he was proud of this, as she was of the vision. Now, that city, whatever city is/was occupied with living beings, men, women and children, feeble and infirm. This made Dany proud, happy and sad, sad that this would never happen because her son died. How in the HELL does anyone think that Dany is good for anyone if this is her mindset? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Freypie Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 Aegon was a conqueror with dragons and he united a realm and developped a city.I think Dany revelation should be you can be a conqueror *and* plant trees, she isn't forced to do one or the other.She just need to learn to multitask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 If I want to read about a conflict between a morally good hero fighting a "race"/opponent of always chaotic stupid evil mooks that they will always defeat then I can always crack open my copy of Lord of the Rings. However, while reading ASoIaF I desire my stories to have some type of ambiguity and realism about people's intelligence. Yet, Dany's story completely fails that objective with her and her forces always being force into the moral right and her opponents being cardboard cutout villains.Are they though? While I agree that her Essos opponents on the whole are much less fleshed out and cartoonish than the various factions in Westeros, its still unambiguious that she allows the torture of innocent(s) in order to get information--not the torture even of the persons who are believed to have the info--but their innocent daughters who everyone knows don't know anything. And then there is the 'right back at you' crucifying....is this to be judged as morally right?Is simply living in a slave society enough justification for all the atrocities that she has committed upon these peoples? I admit I'm fairly shocked that so many seem to think it is, considering how many real world societies, Rome, Greece, Egypt, China, were slave societies and it never occured to me anyone would be like 'yeah, everyone in those socities that created so much beauty, philosophy, architecture deseserved to die'....Oh well, this argument about Dany never gets anywhere I've found, either you see the things she has done as unacceptable even in pursuit of a laudable goal or you don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveRoid Posted May 30, 2013 Author Share Posted May 30, 2013 Man so many people think Danny has been evil so far in her decisions? where is this coming from?This board has a different mindset on these matters I suppose.For example Danny should have killed those hostages when the harpies didn't stop their ambushes. She didn't. Eddard stark would have killed those hostages just as he would have killed theon had greyjoys invaded.The biggest problem with Danny's rule in Mereen has been that she is too SOFT not that she is some mad evil women already.. Only If you live in the Disney world that might be the case but not in Got.Just as Jon was soft before Aemon gave him this advice, kill the boy and let the man be born. Danny has gone through the same phase at the end of ADWD and if you think what she is doing now is evil you have something else coming lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair's Pantaloons Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Man so many people think Danny has been evil so far in her decisions? where is this coming from?This board has a different mindset on these matters I suppose.For example Danny should have killed those hostages when the harpies didn't stop their ambushes. She didn't. Eddard stark would have killed those hostages just as he would have killed theon had greyjoys invaded.The biggest problem with Danny's rule in Mereen has been that she is too SOFT not that she is some mad evil women already.. Only If you live in the Disney world that might be the case but not in Got.Just as Jon was soft before Aemon gave him this advice, kill the boy and let the man be born. Danny has gone through the same phase at the end of ADWD and if you think what she is doing now is evil you have something else coming lol. True, torturing the wine-seller's daughter when it couldn't possibly gain her anything was a noble act. Even more noble was burning a Lamb Woman who Dany allowed to destroy her life through pure stupidity. Then of course there's the height of her greatness, letting her dragons roam the countryside to feast on innocent children. :bowdown: She'll fit right in with the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pentos Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 True, torturing the wine-seller's daughter when it couldn't possibly gain her anything was a noble act. Even more noble was burning a Lamb Woman who Dany allowed to destroy her life through pure stupidity. Then of course there's the height of her greatness, letting her dragons roam the countryside to feast on innocent children. :bowdown: She'll fit right in with the Lannisters.In another thread you were arguing that locking up the Dragons made her a bad mother. Now you are saying letting them fly free was wrong. There's a lot of completely irrational venom aimed at Dany but you are taking it to another level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMysteriousOne Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 True, torturing the wine-seller's daughter when it couldn't possibly gain her anything was a noble act. Even more noble was burning a Lamb Woman who Dany allowed to destroy her life through pure stupidity. Then of course there's the height of her greatness, letting her dragons roam the countryside to feast on innocent children. :bowdown: She'll fit right in with the Lannisters.How was she being stupid? Without the benefit of hindsight, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 In another thread you were arguing that locking up the Dragons made her a bad mother. Now you are saying letting them fly free was wrong. There's a lot of completely irrational venom aimed at Dany but you are taking it to another level.Training them, attempting to train them, attemping to locate manuscripts on training dragons while she was in Qarth and Meereen would have been the preferred course of action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindchap Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Man so many people think Danny has been evil so far in her decisions? where is this coming from?This board has a different mindset on these matters I suppose.For example Danny should have killed those hostages when the harpies didn't stop their ambushes. She didn't. Eddard stark would have killed those hostages just as he would have killed theon had greyjoys invaded.The biggest problem with Danny's rule in Mereen has been that she is too SOFT not that she is some mad evil women already.. Only If you live in the Disney world that might be the case but not in Got.Just as Jon was soft before Aemon gave him this advice, kill the boy and let the man be born. Danny has gone through the same phase at the end of ADWD and if you think what she is doing now is evil you have something else coming lol.It's not the entire board but they show up more than the Stan fans most of the time. I won't even start topics about her anymore, even though she is one of my favorite characters, simply because this is what happens to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair's Pantaloons Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 How was she being stupid? Without the benefit of hindsight, of course. Because she put her baby's life, her husband's life, and the lives of lots of Blood Riders in the hands of a woman who she had no good reason to trust and had less reason to be loyal to her. Mirri Maz Duur proved her a fool.In another thread you were arguing that locking up the Dragons made her a bad mother. Now you are saying letting them fly free was wrong. There's a lot of completely irrational venom aimed at Dany but you are taking it to another level. So you don't see the difference between locking them away or letting them completely free as bad decisions and taking charge and training them as the only respectable course of action? :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pentos Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Training them, attempting to train them, attemping to locate manuscripts on training dragons while she was in Qarth and Meereen would have been the preferred course of action.Well yes but if the main characters all made the correct decisions all the time it would a shit series of books. It's about character development. She is learning all this stuff as she goes along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Well yes but if the main characters all made the correct decisions all the time it would a shit series of books. It's about character development. She is learning all this stuff as she goes along.She has the only dragons on the planet, she is given all manner of expensive gifts while in Qarth, but all she does is whine about her right to the IT instead of using some of that $$ to get some useful info on the future weapons of mass destruction that she has, which no one else has and has not had for centuries.That is an epic blunder. Of course her massive plot armour will ensure that it all works out for her, just as instead of incinerating her drogon meekly flies away with her and saves her life so she will pay no price for her abject stupidity, because, other than losing her son, she never is the one who pays the price for her bad decisions, someone else does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pentos Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Because she put her baby's life, her husband's life, and the lives of lots of Blood Riders in the hands of a woman who she had no good reason to trust and had less reason to be loyal to her. Mirri Maz Duur proved her a fool.I honestly don't know how you can have read AGOT and come up with such a harsh and judgemental take on her. MMD deceived her but Dany ultimately had the last laugh as MMD died screaming and 3 dragons were born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair's Pantaloons Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 I honestly don't know how you can have read AGOT and come up with such a harsh and judgemental take on her. MMD deceived her but Dany ultimately had the last laugh as MMD died screaming and 3 dragons were born. How is having the last laugh against someone whose life you already ruined an admirable thing? Also, I wouldn't call it a last "laugh" as Dany is now barren, has no Khalasar, and no husband. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pentos Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 How is having the last laugh against someone whose life you already ruined an admirable thing? Also, I wouldn't call it a last "laugh" as Dany is now barren, has no Khalasar, and no husband.Stopping MMD being raped was 'ruining her life'? Dany might not be barren, is about to win her Khalasar and will have at least 2 more husbands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cas Stark Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 How is having the last laugh against someone whose life you already ruined an admirable thing? Also, I wouldn't call it a last "laugh" as Dany is now barren, has no Khalasar, and no husband.To be fair, you can read the text that Mirri's poultice for Drogo initially was good medicine, and it was only when Dany pushed her and demanded blood magic that she decided to teach her a lesson. So, that makes Dany's decision-making sort of 50/50. Mirri was initially grateful enough to help Drogo, but after the second round of demands, not so much. I know some people think Mirri's initial poultice was poisoned but I never did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair's Pantaloons Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 To be fair, you can read the text that Mirri's poultice for Drogo initially was good medicine, and it was only when Dany pushed her and demanded blood magic that she decided to teach her a lesson. So, that makes Dany's decision-making sort of 50/50. Mirri was initially grateful enough to help Drogo, but after the second round of demands, not so much. I know some people think Mirri's initial poultice was poisoned but I never did. I doubt that since she seemed extremely set in her desire to avenge her people. As soon as Dany asks about Drogo's condition she says "It was wrong of them to burn my Temple." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair's Pantaloons Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Stopping MMD being raped was 'ruining her life'? Dany might not be barren, is about to win her Khalasar and will have at least 2 more husbands. No, co-leading a vicious attack on MMD's people and brutally slaughtering women and children was ruining her life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey Pentos Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 co-leading a vicious attack on MMD's people and brutally slaughtering women and children was ruining her life.Ridiculous hyperbole. Drogo was the sole leader of his Khalasar. Dany tried to prevent rape and mistreatment of prisoners. It's in the text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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