The Theory of Everything

[J. Stargaryen]

Sorry if this is mentioned somewhere up the thread, I didn't see it as I skimmed through:

As I've only started watched the show, it struck me that in episode 2 of of the first season, they kept Doreah's story about the moon and dragons (before Dany switches the topic to ways of pleasing Drogo). One has to wonder, did the authors of the show use it because they needed some nice poetic filler before the sex talk, or did it make it into the show because it's somehow important?

We can't really be sure of D&D's motivation for including it at this point. For the most part, I prefer to keep the show and books separate. However, it is probably true that some ASoIaF developments can be gleaned from GoT. Still, (slightly) better that it was included in the show than not. :)

[Maester2chainz]

Well the OP and I tend to usually be on similar wavelengths so I dig the direction this thread is going.

My own theory is that the legend of AA deals with the first dragon rider (being AA) and the process in which he went through to successfully bond with a dragon. Like the OP I think that the First Men (or the Essos ancestors of the First Men) played a significant part. Basically they were sacrifices needed to create a dragon that can be ridden. Three attempts to create lightbringer dealt with trial and error of creating the necessary sacrifice: 1) people from the Dothraki sea (probably the Lhazareens) 2) heart of a lion deals with a king (or queen) or a mighty leader, 3) heart of the spouse, there has to be an emotional connection between dragonrider and the sacrifice.

The legend of lightbringer is reinvented again for the modern age, and I do believe that Jon is at least part of the prophecy of lightbringer. He is Rhaegar's (AA or a dragonrider) third attempt (third child). The first attempt was his daughter of the Rhoynish mother (water). The second attempt was his son and heir Aegon, through the heart of the lion, the Lannister's pride. And the third attempt was with his "true love" Lyanna (of first men descent), causing her death but resulting in Jon.

All hail AA, Rhaegar's prick

[joluoto]

If R+L = J, shouldn't J have white hair?

I'm tellin' you, it's R+L= H.

There has been Targs without the Targ look before. Baelor Breakspear for example.

[The Summer Islander]

@ J. Stargaryen, this is good stuff!

[Frey family reunion]

There has been Targs without the Targ look before. Baelor Breakspear for example.

Also Rhaegar's daughter, Rhaenys

Aegor Rivers had the Targaryen eyes but he also had black hair.

Brynden Rivers was an albino, so technically he didn't have the Targaryen look either.

[Ygrain]

One thing that I was thinking about: while the moon approaching the sun might be the description of an eclipse, I don't think that t could be responsible for the Long Night - unless GRRM intends to totally mess with the laws of physics, he can't just stop celestial bodies. However, if the story of the cracked moon is a reflection of some catastrophy, the Long Night then could be a climatic change induced by the impact - an immense amount of soil particles in the atmosphere would blot out the sun and cause a mini ice age (see for example the climate changes after the eruption of the Tambora volcano which was responsible for several years of colder weather and crop failure worldwide).

[three-eyed monkey]

Really like the thoery and I think you're on to something. I once proposed that the "Dragon has three heads" refers to bloodlines, Valyrian, First Men and uh, can't remember the third (Martell maybe?), and that the studious Rhaeghar had worked this out and was uniting the bloodlines once more through Lyanna. Got no takers back then but you have put it together a lot better than I had. Great work, I certainly don't dismiss it and am interested to see where the thread goes. Well done.

[jmondrag]

Hello, I'm fairly new to the forums and everything so I was wondering if someone could explain the OP's claim that it would be a small thematic leap that AA and his other wife are the progenitors of House Stark. I'm liking everything else, just not quite understanding that part.

[J. Stargaryen]

Hello, I'm fairly new to the forums and everything so I was wondering if someone could explain the OP's claim that it would be a small thematic leap that AA and his other wife are the progenitors of House Stark. I'm liking everything else, just not quite understanding that part.

Ice and Fire, Stark and Targaryen, etc. If AA had two wives, one of which produced the dragonlords of old Valyria, -- at present, the Targaryens -- then it makes thematic sense that AA and his other wife produced the Stark line. That is, produced a magical line of wargs that eventually became known as the Starks.

[Varys BrightBlackflayrme]

I really like the OP. It is excellent and I salute you!

I think you are spot on or very close. It covers all 3 main stories.

Whoever said "Daynes being Proto whatever Valyrians" is cool too.

Thanks

[J. Stargaryen]

@ J. Stargaryen, this is good stuff!

I really like the OP. It is excellent and I salute you!

I think you are spot on or very close. It covers all 3 main stories.

Whoever said "Daynes being Proto whatever Valyrians" is cool too.

Thanks

Thanks. I'm glad you guys liked it.

In answer to the bold, it was Ran; aka, Elio Garcia, jr.

[Lord Tyrion's Whore]

Nope, don't buy it. But it was fun to read.

[J. Stargaryen]

Nope, don't buy it. But it was fun to read.

My main goal as a member of this forum is to find answers, or at least potential answers. That said, I would be happy to read some constructive criticism if you had any.

[J. Stargaryen]

I found a few different meanings for the name Nissa.

Hebrew, to test

Hebrew, sign

Hebrew, signal or sign

Scandinavian, friendly elf

1. Old Norse: Headland
   
2. Scandinavian: Elf, fairy
   
3. Greek: A new beginning
   

(The last three are all from the same link.)

[Frey family reunion]

For a slightly different variant of the name, check this link out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nysa_(wife_of_Pharnaces_I_of_Pontus)

[J. Stargaryen]

For a slightly different variant of the name, check this link out http://en.wikipedia....ces_I_of_Pontus)

Thank you! A couple of interesting tidbits:

Her parents were blooded siblings and her parent’s marriage was the first sibling marriage to occur in the Seleucid dynasty.

Although she died at an unknown date in the 2nd century BC, she is believed to have died during childbirth.

[Stoned Dragon]

I love the idea of a Grand Unified Theory of Everything, and I think you're right to focus on dragons as the link between multiple prophesies and bits of magic. But in order to create a theory that connects all the magical prophesies in ASOIAF into one, complete cosmology, I think we should attempt to ground ourselves in some facet or ideology that connects all the different magical ideologies in ASOIAF and from there slowly attempt to fold in other things that we are less sure about.

[Prepare for a long, long post -- sorry! -- but I've included underlined summaries after each section]

Part 1: The Magic Behind Waking Dragons

The only magical belief that seems to have universal acceptance regards the practice of hatching dragons.

Melisandre, a Red Priestess from Asshai, believes that Azor Ahai Reborn will be able to wake dragons from stone:

"It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone."

She also believes that kings' blood has power, and that the sacrifice of two generations of royal blood is necessary to "wake dragons from stone." ["Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and the son, so both die kings"] We see her attempt this in theory with the execution of Mance and the belief that his son would be next. We also see this belief in Melisandre's attempts to sacrifice Edric Storm on Dragonstone. For Melisandre, this is fact. But we know that this is true whether you believe in the Red God or not. We can see a perversion of this two kings/dragons ceremony in Essos, where MMD, a maegi from Asshai, sacrificed Rhaego to animate Drogo inside her tent. In the process, MMD used Prince Rhaego's "dragon" spirit to animate Drogo inside her tent -- putting two Kings into one body, and in the process turning Dany's fetus into a literal dragon-like abomination. MMD literally woke a dragon inside of a metaphorical "dragon" (Rhaego/Dany). Later, on the funeral pyre, in a separate ceremony, Dany sacrificed the body/blood of the combined Drogo/Rhaego, sacrificing two kings' blood in the process, and managed to wake literal dragons from stone eggs. We get further confirmation that the deaths of two royal generations in sacrifice can awaken a metaphorical dragon, since on the day that Rhaegar was born the Tragedy at Summerhall killed King Aegon V and Prince Duncan in a ceremony attempting to wake dragons from stone -- a ceremony where only the Ghost of Highheart survived.

It would seem that the recipe for waking dragons from stone ( death and/or sacrifice of two generations of royalty, fire and a magical practitioner) is the only piece of magic that works no matter what your particular beliefs are. Mirri Maz Duur was trained in Asshai and was a Godswife in the Temple of the Great Shepard, Melisandre is a Red Priestess also trained in Asshaii, and the Ghost of Hight Heart is rumored to be one of the Children of the Forest working on behalf of the Old Gods. With three, independent sources we can pretty much assume from now on that that dragons, either metaphorical or literal, come about when two generations of royals die in a fire sacrifice.

With that as our basis, let's integrate another bit of the ASOIAF universe.

The most basic thing we know about dragons are their affiliation with the Targaryans. The Targaryans' words are "fire and blood," consequently the two ingredients you need to sacrifice in order to birth dragons. I don't think this is a coincidence. We know that Valyrian magic is rooted in fire and blood, as evidenced by Victarion's dragonhorn, which requires someone to make a blood sacrifice to claim it and someone to potentially die after blowing it. As evidenced by the man who blew the horn for Euron at the Kingsmoot, blowing the horn causes the person to be charred from the inside, as if the horn had set their organs afire. If all Valyrian magic required fire and blood, it would explain all those "crazy" Targaryans who attempted to hatch dragons in ceremonies that ended in their fiery deaths. King Aerys II believed setting fire to all of King's Landing would result in him turning into a dragon, one Targaryan attempted to swallow wildfire to unleash his inner dragon. These and other instances were all perversions of the original instructions for hatching dragons by people removed from its original meaning. This means that four different magical belief systems (the Valyrians, the Children of the Forest/Old Gods, Red Priests, and independent maegi from Asshai) all believe that hatching or obtaining control over dragons required blood sacrifice and a fiery death.

This should be the grounding of any attempts at a "Grand Unified Theory of Everything," since no other magic can be seen practiced by so many different types of magic, in so many different situations, across the entire history of ASOIAF.

Part 2: Integrating Dorheah's Fable About The Moon and the Sun

The Targaryans' "Fire and Blood" motto helps connect Valyrian Magic to the hatching of dragons, but its their polygymous practices that help connect the Valyrians to the fable Dany heard on the Dothraki Sea. According to the fable, at one point one of two Moons (a woman/wife) got too close to the Sun (a man, her husband) and cracked open, and from her dragons were born into the world. Like the "Sun" in this story, Targaryans were known to wed two women at the same time. More importantly, the Targaryans wed their own relations, and, as such, their wives were royal blood themselves (or, perhaps Queens in their own right, like Aegon's sisters). If we use what we know to be true about hatching dragons, then the "Moon" in this fable could stand in as a metaphor for a pregnant Targaryan/Valyrian. The child inside this "Moon" would thus contain the blood of two royals (Queen/heir), satisfying the criteria set by Melisandre/MMD/Summerhall of needing two generations of King's blood in order to wake dragon's from stone. Since we know that fire is required to hatch/wake dragons, the "Sun" serves a dual purpose as both "Husband" and fiery death.

If we look at what occurred during Summerhall, Rhaego's transformation, and Dany's funeral pyre, the idea that a pregnant Targaryan is needed to hatch dragons isn't unfounded. At Summerhall, Princess Rhaella died on the same day that two generations of royalty, King Aegon V and Prince Duncan, died in a ceremonial fire meant to wake dragons from stone. Her child was Prince Rhaegar, believed by many to be a metaphorical "dragon." During Mirri Maz Duur's ceremony in the tent, a pregnant Targaryan (Dany) got too close to her Sun (Drogo) during magical ceremony, and as a result she gave birth to a literal dragon (Rhaego's deformed body). But because the ceremony was missing elements, the entire thing was botched. Unlike the Moon in Doreah's story, Dany didn't die during the ceremony. Neither were Rhaego, Drogo, or Dany consumed by fire in this first ceremony. Without these elements, the ceremony was perverted and the pregnant Targaryan gave birth to a literal dragon-like, disfigured child. Instead of two generations dying in the ceremony, Rhaego's body died. This explains why this portion of the ceremony failed to hatch viable dragons, either literal or metaphorical.

It was only later, when Dany put Drogo in the fire with her dragon eggs that the literal dragons were born from their eggs. According to the theory, this occurred because Rhaego's essence was still living inside of Drogo when she smothered him, meaning she killed and sacrificed two kings, the father and the son, on her funeral pyre -- fulfilling the requirements and waking dragons from literal stone.

Dany has a prophetic dream that backs up the assertion that the appearance of dragons were related to miscarriages:

"Her thighs were slick with blood. She closed her eyes and whimpered. As if in answer, there was a hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire. When she looked again, Viserys was gone, great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was the dragon"

The blood on Dany's thighs could suggest her period, but it could also suggest a miscarriage or birth. The "ripping sound" sounds eerily similar to the cracking of the Moon when it neared too close to the Sun, and the "crackling of some great fire" fulfills the fire aspect of the process. Viserys, the Targaryan Pretender to the Throne, disappearing in the flames + a potential birth/miscarriage in the flames fulfills the requirement of two generations of royalty.

All of this suggests that the fable Dany heard about the Moon and the Sun could very well be true, and that when a pregnant woman dies in a fiery sacrifice (got too close to the sun) dragons are birthed into the world.

Summary:

Four different sources confirm that fire and blood are required to hatch or tame dragons. We also know that variations in the formula (which seems to include two generations of royal deaths, dragons' eggs, a pregnant Queen, a fire ceremony, and a magical practitioner) can lead to different results -- but all of which result in either a literal or metaphorical dragon being born. In order for Doreah's story to make sense, the moon has to be a pregnant Queen and the sun has to be a fiery sacrifice and/or King to inseminate the Queen. This way, when she dies (or "cracks" as Doreah claims) after getting too close to the sun, she either births a metaphorical dragon or hatches literal dragons from stone -- depending on the exact ingredients.

Part Three: Is Lightbringer Code For "Dragons"

According to the Red Priests, AA attempted to temper a blade in water to fight against the Others, but it broke apart. He attempted to temper it in the heart of a lion, but that too proved insufficient. Finally, he stabbed a new sword into his wife Nissa Nissa and forged Lightbringer. He then used that sword to fight the Others. Many people assume that Lightbringer is a metaphor for dragons. Many people assume that Lightbringer is a metaphor for dragons, and that Nissa Nissa is an equivalent to the "Moon," or wife, that got too close to the "Sun," her husband. But based on what we know about hatching dragons, the only way this could work is if Nissa Nissa was pregnant when she was sacrificed by Azor Ahai to create Lightbringer. Under those conditions, her death, and the death of her child, in a fiery ceremony would create part of the conditions for hatching a dragon. But the problem with this theory is that Nissa Nissa isn't portrayed as pregnant in the prophesy, and she isn't said to have birthed anything. All her death did was strengthen/temper a blade that already existed. Moreover, there is no mention of a priest or dragon eggs. In short, too many of the ingredients that we know are required for that sort of magic are missing, so I think its doubtful that "Lightbringer" is a metaphor for dragons.

However, a death caused by blood sacrifice of a loved one and fire are the hallmarks of a different sort of magic. We know that Valyrian magic is rooted in blood and fire, even that magic not specifically relating to dragons. The Maesters in the Citadel spend their last night training attempting to light a glass candle, with the foolish ones said to cut themselves and bleed on the candles to get them to work. Most of the maesters consider this a useless feat, but blood being used to create fire is exactly in line with what we know about Valyrians. The re-appearance of dragons seems to have bolstered this sort of magic and the glass candles are currently burning both in the Citadel and in Asshai (according to Quaithe). Like dragonglass, the previously mentioned dragonhorn also requires blood in order to be wielded properly. It stands to reason that Valyrian swords require the same sort of blood and fire sacrifice. The process of forging a sword for 100 days and 100 nights and then tempering the blade in the heart of a loved one in order to create a magical sword sounds like the sort of process that would result in Valyrian steel.

The idea that Azor Ahai was creating a Valyrian Steel sword and not a dragon also fits because of information we learned at the Wall and in Winterfell about the "Last Hero" and his fight against the Others. We know from Old Nan that the Last Hero actually lost his original sword while traveling in search of the Children of the Forest, when it shattered from the cold. This is backed up by happenings at the Wall, where normal swords proved shattered when wielded against the Others. According to Sam's research, the Last Hero wielded a sword made of "dragonsteel" when he fought against the Others. So sometime between meeting the Children of the Forest and leading the fight against the Others, the Last Hero met with the Children of the Forest and obtained a "dragonsteel" sword. Like the theory for AA, the story of the Last Hero also neglects to mention women giving birth or multi-generational sacrifice, so it's very unlikely the "dragonsteel" weapon the Last Hero used was an actual dragon.

It's also worth mentioning that Azor Ahai is not the same as Azor Ahai Reborn:

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

Whereas Azor Ahai had to forge his sword himself, Azor Ahai Reborn simply has to draw forth a burning sword from the fire. The prophesy doesn't require another Nissa Nissa sacrifice. AAR doesn't necessarily have to forge Lightbringer himself, since there are already Valyrian swords in Westeros -- they just have to pull the sword one from the flames.

Summary:

While the Azor Ahai prophesy involves a man killing his wife to create a fiery weapon against the Others, its missing too many of the essential ingredients (pregnancy, fire ceremony, two generations of royal blood) required to birth literal or metaphorical dragons. Based on the evidence, the forging of Lightbringer is most likely a recipe for making Valyrian steel, weapons which, according to both the Azor Ahai prophesy and the Last Hero mythology, are presumed to be one of the Others' few weaknesses -- thus explaining why the Others/Darkness would flee before its wielder.

[This is really long, so I'll stop here. But I'll post later with "Part Four: Azor Ahai, Lightbringer, and Dragons."]

[King of Winters]

I found a few different meanings for the name Nissa.

Hebrew, to test

Hebrew, sign

Hebrew, signal or sign

Scandinavian, friendly elf

1. Old Norse: Headland
   
2. Scandinavian: Elf, fairy
   
3. Greek: A new beginning
   

(The last three are all from the same link.)

I think the Hebrew meanings have more significance as Azor Ahai, in Hebrew, means "A Helper" "Favoured By God".

Great post by the way J. Stargaryen

[J. Stargaryen]

I think the Hebrew meanings have more significance as Azor Ahai, in Hebrew, means "A Helper" "Favoured By God".

Great post by the way J. Stargaryen

Thank you. I had the same idea wrt to Hebrew being the more significant meaning. Especially to test, which reminds me of Maester Aemon's speech from AGoT, Jon VIII (“for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty.”) where he tells Jon how he was tested three times during his life.

The above quote might tie in with the one polygamous marriage we know about, Aegon and his sisters, and the other one we suspect, Rhaegar + Elia and Lyanna. In both cases the man married one woman for duty, and the other for love.* (I have some ideas of how this might tie into my OP wrt to Azor Ahai and his two wives, which I will get to eventually.)

Now, if you break down those two polygamous marriages between Love and Duty, another interesting coincidence appears: the progeny of the wife that was wed for duty all perished before they could reproduce, assuming YG is not the real Aegon. On the other hand, the wife that was wed for love produced lines that still live, though Jon Snow himself has yet to reproduce.

“for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty.”

*Valyrian custom required Aegon to marry his older sister Visenya, though he spent one night with her for every ten with Rhaenys, according to GRRM's reading from the WoIaF book.

---

Stoned Dragon,

That's a really interesting post, though I did notice one mistake. Princess Rhaella did not die giving birth to Rhaegar. She is also the mother of Viserys and Daenerys.

It was never my intention to create a "grand unifying theory of everything" or anything like that. My choice of title is a bit more artistic, though I use that term loosely.

The idea is that these seemingly opposing forces (Stark&Targ) actually have the same origin point. Also, and I don't know if anyone picked up on this, but there is a layer of irony here because this theory is in crackpot territory, and fairly vague, and certainly incomplete. Which mirrors the original scientific usage of ToE:

Initially, the term 'theory of everything' was used with an ironic connotation to refer to various overgeneralized theories.

- Wikipedia

[J. Stargaryen]

AGoT, Eddard X:

“And now it begins,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn

and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

- Describing the greatsword Dawn.

AGoT, Prologue:

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

- Describing the sword of an Other.

AGoT, Prologue:

Then Royce’s parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seemed red as fire where they touched the snow. Ser Waymar’s fingers brushed his side. His moleskin glove came away soaked with red.

- Describing the sword of an Other.

AGoT, Prologue:

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.

- Describing an Other.

ASoS, Samwell I:

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. “Mother, that’s cold.”

- Describing the remains of an Other.

---

To me it's interesting that Dawn – as a completely unique entity in the Seven Kingdoms – shares its descriptions with Others and their weapons. An unlikely coincidence in my book.

What does it mean though? Well, simply that the sword is possibly tied to the Others in one way or another. But how did the Daynes, or any human for that matter, come to possess this blade? Were they able to replicate the Others' magic somehow? Did they win it from the Others? Was it a gift?

Interesting questions all, I think. Alas, I have no real answers to give, and would prefer to keep my crackpotting to a minimum for now. :)