How Will Jon React?

[Pikachu101]

I agree very strongly with Pikachu. It is night and day between Rhaegar and Ned. Rhaegar is much more culpable... if he and Lyanna had simply been open about things and Lyanna had told Bobby B to his face "sorry buddy, we're not gonna happen" then everything could have been averted. Their actions were entirely selfish and they either didn't consider or didn't care about how people would react. Lyanna had at least nine months to clear up that she went with Rhaegar willing, and Rhaegar had plenty of time to do so as well, but they didn't. Ned made bad decisions, but they weren't selfish... it is honorable ignorance versus selfish indifference.

Thank you :D

Jory Cassel is just trying too hard and failing miserably

[Northern Pride]

On the flip side of the coin. How will Westeros react to Jon Targaryen?

I've wondered a lot about the R+L=J theory but always have trouble trying to figure out how Westeros will accept this idea. Especially after Aegon and Dany introduce themselves. "Oh hi, my name is Jon and btw I'm a Targ too."

He is going to have to come out of his coma with some kind of talent or ability to prove himself. Possibilities equal warging, dragon summoning or something. If Faegon proves false how can someone just claim that Jon Snow is a Targ just because some bog man named Howland says so?

[Pikachu101]

On the flip side of the coin. How will Westeros react to Jon Targaryen?

I've wondered a lot about the R+L=J theory but always have trouble trying to figure out how Westeros will accept this idea. Especially after Aegon and Dany introduce themselves. "Oh hi, my name is Jon and btw I'm a Targ too."

He is going to have to come out of his coma with some kind of talent or ability to prove himself. Possibilities equal warging, dragon summoning or something. If Faegon proves false how can someone just claim that Jon Snow is a Targ just because some bog man named Howland says so?

Agree, I don't see anyone accepting Jon over Dany and Aegon (even if he's a fake).

1. Jon doesn't look like a Targaryen, Aegon does

2. No one's going to support his claim

3. I don't even think Jon will believe Howland let alone the rest of Westeros

4. R+L=J only makes sense to the readers, for the characters it doesn't

If I was Jon I would keep my mouth shut. He doesn't stand a chance against a chick with three dragons and a dude with an army.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

I'm just going to quote myself here:

The abduction/escape was not a smart move, I never insisted it was. Politically and strategically speaking, it was a foolish notion, no doubt. But staging an abduction and accepting the reputation of a rapist so that a girl who loved him could be with him without tainting her honor and the honor of her house does not fit my definition of selfish.

How is his elopement with with Lyanna not selfish? The guy risked the stability of the realm just for his own needs. She isn't a common girl, she's the daughter of Lord Stark, the warden of the North. She also happened to be betrothed to the Lord Paramount if the Stormlands. If that wasn't enough, he was already married to Elia Martell, the sister of Lord Paramount Doran Martell. He abandoned his children, his wife, and the rest of his family to run off with a girl who he may have barely known prior to the elopement. Sure, he didn't love Elia, but running off with Lyanna makes Elia look bad and is an insult to the Martell family.

I am not blaming him for the war though. He shares a good amount of blame, but there are others who are at fault too, including Lyanna.

[Real Heir of Bear Island]

I think Jon will get the reveal at the end of a chapter. Next time we see him he will have had time to chew on the information a bit. I think he will have mixed feelings. There will be some bitterness because Ned isn't really his father, but some sweetness finally knowing who his mother is and what she and Ned went through so he can be alive. I think with the news he will gain a new intensity and a new outlook on what his life means and what he is meant to do.

[Jory Cassel]

How is his elopement with with Lyanna not selfish? The guy risked the stability of the realm just for his own needs. She isn't a common girl, she's the daughter of Lord Stark, the warden of the North. She also happened to be betrothed to the Lord Paramount if the Stormlands. If that wasn't enough, he was already married to Elia Martell, the sister of Lord Paramount Doran Martell. He abandoned his children, his wife, and the rest of his family to run off with a girl who he may have barely known prior to the elopement. Sure, he didn't love Elia, but running off with Lyanna makes Elia look bad and is an insult to the Martell family.

I am not blaming him for the war though. He shares a good amount of blame, but there are others who are at fault too, including Lyanna.

As stated in the post you quoted: His reputation went down the gutter, so to speak, in order to protect the honor of the girl he loved. This already doesn't qualify as selfishness anymore as selfishness is defined by putting one's own interests and well-being about that of others.

And even if you despise/ridicule the prophecy Rhaegar believed in: Rhaegar's actions being caused by the prophecy does not qualify as selfishness, either.

Someone of the same mind as Rhaegar might consider it altruism, someone who doesn't might consider it lunacy.

As for your reasoning that he took a great political risk: I never denied it, I am of the same opinion (as I stated in previous posts). Politically speaking, it was ill-done.

[jon stark I]

As stated in the post you quoted: His reputation went down the gutter, so to speak, in order to protect the honor of the girl he loved. This already doesn't qualify as selfishness anymore as selfishness is defined by putting one's own interests and well-being about that of others.

And even if you despise/ridicule the prophecy Rhaegar believed in: Rhaegar's actions being caused by the prophecy does not qualify as selfishness, either.

Someone of the same mind as Rhaegar might consider it altruism, someone who doesn't might consider it lunacy.

As for your reasoning that he took a great political risk: I never denied it, I am of the same opinion (as I stated in previous posts). Politically speaking, it was ill-done.

Protecting the honor of Lyanna is bullsh*t.So he was protecting Lyanna where was his mind before he run away with her?Did he think when they run away people would think they were going to library for some reading?If you are looking for one redeeming point for Rhaegar then you may say he loved Lyanna because other then that he has no redeeming point.With his one decision he put all his family, his people in danger and he also demolished Stark honor.And if he was not selfish then he wouldn't go with Lyanna.While remaining silent protects Lyannas honor also it puts entire Targeryan family in danger also not to mention the people who will fight for them.So by your definiton Rhaegar was the most selfish person in the entire world.No matter what he was reading I think he was a crazy person.And Ned and Rhaegar are completely different.

[Jory Cassel]

Protecting the honor of Lyanna is bullsh*t.So he was protecting Lyanna where was his mind before he run away with her?Did he think when they run away people would think they were going to library for some reading?If you are looking for one redeeming point for Rhaegar then you may say he loved Lyanna because other then that he has no redeeming point.With his one decision he put all his family, his people in danger and he also demolished Stark honor.And if he was not selfish then he wouldn't go with Lyanna.While remaining silent protects Lyannas honor also it puts entire Targeryan family in danger also not to mention the people who will fight for them.So by your definiton Rhaegar was the most selfish person in the entire world.No matter what he was reading I think he was a crazy person.And Ned and Rhaegar are completely different.

I think you see the contradiction there, too.

Everyone (and that was what Rhaegar wanted to achieve) believed he had kidnapped Lyanna and probably was going to rape her. Where did I say Rhaegar thought something else?

Why does Rhaegar need a redeeming point? Your complete judgement of Rhaegar derives from one rash and unwise action that started a chain of events that eventually lead to war.

One action/mistake does not justify such a harsh judgement. Or do you think that Robb brought his fate on himself, too, because he slept with the Westerling girl and married her afterwards so he would not stain her honor? Would you call him selfish for his action? While some of the circumstances are different, the parallels are significant: Both set off a chain of events that ended badly for both of them and they had no say in these events.

Would a selfish person fight and die for a mad king (whose actions ultimately caused the war, hands down)? No. If he had been too concerned with his own life (a sign of selfishness btw) he could've coordinated the battle from behind the ranks or he could have stayed away from the battlefield in the first place, staying at the ToJ and giving a KG the command.

If you call him insane and delusional, I'm fine with it, it's a position that can be justified rather well. But selfish? No.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

As stated in the post you quoted: His reputation went down the gutter, so to speak, in order to protect the honor of the girl he loved. This already doesn't qualify as selfishness anymore as selfishness is defined by putting one's own interests and well-being about that of others.

And even if you despise/ridicule the prophecy Rhaegar believed in: Rhaegar's actions being caused by the prophecy does not qualify as selfishness, either.

Someone of the same mind as Rhaegar might consider it altruism, someone who doesn't might consider it lunacy.

As for your reasoning that he took a great political risk: I never denied it, I am of the same opinion (as I stated in previous posts). Politically speaking, it was ill-done.

And that's exactly what he did. He put his own interest over over that of his family's. The guy just one day left his children for a 15 year old girl. He had already insulted his wife a year before that. Besides, shouldn't the intelligent Rhaegar know that running off with a lord paramounts daughter could possibly create a political mess which could then lead to a war? He knew his father was an unstable nut. Running off with the girl he loves and taking the fall isn't exactly selfless when the stability of the realm is dependent on these marriage alliances.

As for the prophecy, what if Jon isn't the PTWP? We don't even know if he ran off with her to fulfill a prophecy, we can only assume based on some possible evidence in the text. If Dany turned out to be the PTWP or if there isn't one, how would that make Rhaegar look?

I can sympathize with Rhaegar and Lyanna. I'd hate to be in the same situation as they were, but in that society, it's something that they should've just put up with. Also, i dont think his one possible act of selflessness covers up for insulting his wife in public, neglecting his children, and showing up later in the war when his family started losing.

[Jory Cassel]

And that's exactly what he did. He put his own interest over over that of his family's. The guy just one day left his children for a 15 year old girl. He had already insulted his wife a year before that. Besides, shouldn't the intelligent Rhaegar know that running off with a lord paramounts daughter could possibly create a political mess which could then lead to a war? He knew his father was an unstable nut. Running off with the girl he loves and taking the fall isn't exactly selfless when the stability of the realm is dependent on these marriage alliances.

As for the prophecy, what if Jon isn't the PTWP? We don't even know if he ran off with her to fulfill a prophecy, we can only assume based on some possible evidence in the text. If Dany turned out to be the PTWP or if there isn't one, how would that make Rhaegar look?

I can sympathize with Rhaegar and Lyanna. I'd hate to be in the same situation as they were, but in that society, it's something that they should've just put up with. Also, i dont think his one possible act of selflessness covers up for insulting his wife in public, neglecting his children, and showing up later in the war when his family started losing.

I never doubted that. It's exactly what I said in the last line of the post you quoted. Except for "isn't exactly selfless". Who said it was selfless or altruistic? I didn't, I claimed it was not selfish. And again: Headless, rash and foolish =/= selfish. And not selfless =/= selfish. For example: Ned's decision to inform Cersei of his plans to tell Robert was completely altruistic, in the finest sense. He had nothing but contempt for the Lannisters. But telling Robert would not have been selfish. There is no black and white.

Rhaegar believing in prophecies is more or less an assumption, but a fairly strong one. Besides his change of heart to become a warrior which he refused earlier, we have Dany's vision in the house of the undying. (The vision of Robb is true, so is Aerys' and the other one is a memory of dany, so assuming the one about Rhaegar is true, too, is safe.)

In this vision Daeneris sees Rhaegar, who says that Aegon is the prince that was promised, his was the song of ice and fire, and shortly after he says that there must be one more, since the dragon must have three heads.

And if the prophecy or Rhaegars understanding of it turn out to be false, it would make Rhaegar look obsessed, you could even argue insane or mad. But selfish?

This would only be the case if the prophecy promised personal gain or power for Rhaegar. And there is no indication whatsoever that the prophecy included such a thing.

As for the last part: maybe they should've given in to the conventions of medieval society and just played their roles, they might both have had a long and prosperous life, but they chose their love over family allegiance and Rhaegar even chose it over his honor, and it cost them both dearly. In hindsight, they might have acted differently, but all the events could not be anticipated.

(Did he neglect his children? maybe, maybe not, all that is certain is that he spent the time from abduction to death away from KL and that he was affectionate towards Aegon (see Dany's vision). He probably showed up to the war as soon as he could when he heard of its outbreak, he was not exactly at a centre of information)

[no_payne_no_gain]

I feel like Jon would say nothing, shake his head and (pull a theon) say, "No. that's not possible. Ned raised me as his son. I am his son."

and then go warg into ghost.

[The Prince of Ice]

Two man made myths so who cares ;)

Jesus was a real person not a myth, its still debateable whether or not he was god or not though.