(Book Spoilers) Theon and the reveal

[Nezzer]

I was rewatching The Climb, and just had an idea of changing Theon's reveal in the show to something a bit different:

They could have done it in the scene where Ramsay flays Theon's finger, but have the scene in The Rains of Castamere just before the Red Wedding. Ramsay plays the guessing game, and Theon is tortured until he correctly guesses his location to be the Dreadfort and his torturer to be Bolton's bastard. He then tells Ramsay that he's being tortured for betraying Robb and his men burning Winterfell. Ramsay confirms this, but gets back up and corrects Theon by flaying his finger. He tells him that it was never the ironborn that burnt Winterfell, it was him. And Ramsay couldn't care less about the betrayal, he's just torturing Theon because he enjoys it. He then flays Theon's finger, and Theon begs him to cut it off. The scene concludes with Ramsay smiling and saying "I win".

So it would pretty much be the same scene, except it would be tweaked a little bit, and justifies showing a 5 minute torture scene while advancing the plot. I think this could have been effective as a "HOLY SHIT WTF" moment if shown just before the Red Wedding.

I think that would be a bad idea. Most people thought Theon's torture scenes were pretty repetitive already, and repeating the flaying scene almost the exact same way would only make them dislike Theon's scenes even more. I hope they mix the torture scenes with the hunting scenes next season, if Ramsay ever searches for Rickon, with Theon saving some peasants or maybe even Rickon from Ramsay, and paying the price for it. Reek still has too many fingers, toes and teeth.

[Pinkie Baelish]

I didn't mean that they should have repeated the flaying scene, I'm saying it could have happened in a later episode

[Weeping Sore]

I think that would be a bad idea. Most people thought Theon's torture scenes were pretty repetitive already, and repeating the flaying scene almost the exact same way would only make them dislike Theon's scenes even more. I hope they mix the torture scenes with the hunting scenes next season, if Ramsay ever searches for Rickon, with Theon saving some peasants or maybe even Rickon from Ramsay, and paying the price for it. Reek still has too many fingers, toes and teeth.

Where are his dogs? I think an actual scene of a naked woman being chased through the forest by Ramsay's dogs would be amazing but might generate too many complaints- maybe we get just an aftermath of the dogs feeding.

His "girls" probably wouldn't hold up too well against Shaggydog, if it comes to that.

Hate to force it on an actor, but Alfie's gotta lose some weight to seem like Reek. Maybe that's why he pumped up for this season, better contrast.

Since there was no original Reek on the show, I wonder if they'll make Ramsay the necrophile? Why does Iwan Rheon seem more like a necrophile than Book Ramsay? :lol:

[Yukle]

The entire plot-line with Theon felt like a waste of time in this series. There was nothing gained in having Ramsay's identity remaining a secret and there was little impact in revealing who he really was.

Also, Theon seemed to give up without much resistance. Two punches to the head and his defiant insistence that his name is Theon disappeared. The significance of being named "Reek" is lost without pointing out that Ramsay had a miserable and evil friend of the same name.

[Pinkie Baelish]

The entire plot-line with Theon felt like a waste of time in this series. There was nothing gained in having Ramsay's identity remaining a secret and there was little impact in revealing who he really was.

Also, Theon seemed to give up without much resistance. Two punches to the head and his defiant insistence that his name is Theon disappeared. The significance of being named "Reek" is lost without pointing out that Ramsay had a miserable and evil friend of the same name.

The standard "third time's the charm" is a pretty common form of storytelling used in visual media, hence why Theon breaks after the third punch. Besides, it's not like he truly embraced the identity of Reek yet: that will come later. I saw the scene as Theon finally giving in to Ramsay's demands to make the pain stop. There's plenty of time for Theon to truly become Reek next season: what we saw in the finale was just the birth of Reek, not the end result. I would have liked to see the origins of Reek, but I'd argue that the significance of being named Reek is not as much the fact that Ramsay had a friend of the same name as it is the loss of Theon's identity, which is a major theme related to his character.

[Howie Manderly]

I think Ramsays kind of cute hobbit like appearance makes his psychopathy all the more terrifying and hilarious.

[The Killer Snark]

I agree with Pinkie Baelish actually. Theon needed to lose at least another finger, or a toe, before his cock got lost, because it was one of the last things to go in the novels, and because the "It was really me who destroyed Winterfell, and you're getting the blame" scenario would have been a nice set-up for the reveal after the Red Wedding. I like Theon as a character, but if that's the producers done now with the torturing in-show, they have to show the after-effects of more on his reappearance to keep the tone exact of ASOIAF's morbidity. To recapitatulate:

Theon loses a few fingers and toes, at first as punishments to make him learn his name. They are flayed and left to go rotten, till he gets Ramsay to cut them off. Later, Ramsay just continues the game in order to even out the amputations.

To make him smell like his previous servant, he gets dressed in rags, is forbidden to bathe or wipe himself, and gets smeared head to foot with what is implied to be dogshit, pigshit and human excrement. Whilst in the dungeons, he gets regularly chewed upon by rats.

He has his teeth bashed to splinters with a hammer. This probably predates the flayings in the books.

He has his dick cut off. I believe this happens some time before he heads to Moat Cailin, in order to further destroy any innate resistance. If it was done as one of the initial punishments, it most likely would have been flayed first. I also believe he gets castrated just after the Moat Cailin incident, in order to demonstrate his 'lack of balls' for betraying his own kin.

He loses three stone in weight, his hair turns white and falls out in clumps, and from being a good-looking youth he comes to resemble a very old man. He's also covered in slash marks where he's been cut into just for fun, and his joints are presumably twisted of account of being racked.

In order to keep things faithful, there's much more torture forthcoming, shown or otherwise. Ramsay's reveal should have come earlier, in order to increase Theon's defiance, which is what had actually kicked off the initial mutilations in the backstory given in ADwD.

[The Mondrian Oak]

Also, Theon seemed to give up without much resistance. Two punches to the head and his defiant insistence that his name is Theon disappeared. The significance of being named "Reek" is lost without pointing out that Ramsay had a miserable and evil friend of the same name.

This is utterly unbelievable, and the fact that many have made this statement is even worse.

Theon has been tortured for weeks: hung to a cross, no water, flayed, maimed, castrated, beaten, almost raped. His torturer told him he is NOT going to kill him, therefore resisting him would mean more endless torture, while "crucifixed". Did you ever take a punch right into the face? Do you know how much it hurts? One punch in the face will be enough to make many people break at the prospect of getting another. But this is not a matter of only one punch; I feel like writing it again: Theon has been hung to a cross, without water, flayed, maimed, castrated, beaten, almost raped. For weeks.

Theon gave up too early. Jesus Christ.

[The Killer Snark]

No, I actually agree. But this incident alone is not enough for Theon to go into full Stockhausen Syndrome mode and embrace his new invented character. It would, however, lead him to go along with Ramsay at that moment to stop the punches to his face, temporarily. It's not as if he really thinks of himself as Reek. So I believe a lot of posters, like myself, would find it a cop out if Theon has turned into Reek completely so suddenly, and that's as far as they're going with things.

[The Mondrian Oak]

No, I actually agree. But this incident alone is not enough for Theon to go into full Stockhausen Syndrome mode and embrace his new invented character. It would, however, lead him to along with Ramsay at that moment to stop the punches to his face, temorarily. So I believe a lot of posters, like myself, would find it a cop out if Theon has turned into Reek completely so suddenly, and that's as far as they're going with things.

Fine, but don't you think that's jumping the gun? That was just the first time Theon has come to know his new name.

I have to say though, I've never thought Theon completely accepted his new identity, in the books. The fact that he had to repeat his new name (and what it rymes with) a thousand times leads me to think he never broke down completely. It was just a way to survive, and be spared torture. He even had to tell himself "no, I'm no longer Theon, the turncloak, no, I'm Reek". He was just surviving. Of course, he was broken and terrified, but he immediately called Asha "sister" when he met her in the north, after escaping. Reek has no sisters, has he? So, yeah, I've always thought he never broke down completely.

[The Killer Snark]

No, he didn't, but he at least tried to think of himself as Reek to make himself less prone to punishment, and it wouldn't take this single incident in the show (where Ramsay's reason for the new name, btw, seems completely arbitrary, hopefully pending further background explication) in order to make him go along with all of Ramsay's self-abnegating demands.

[Boi]

Finding the entire line on these add scenes to be questionable?

Theon as a Stark apprentice couldn't identifty the Deadfort from Torhen Square? Didn't recognise a Stark Bannerman.

These new lines have added to the bastards identity giving him pyschotic nature. In a more comedic way or the recognisable clockwork orange cliche sociopath. Missing largely any storyline of why the Bastard has his nature why he is that demented. Briefly some indictation of his childhood through both father and son, but glancing over more. Reek wasnt an epiphany it had history. The Hunt was questionable killing his own men, somebody would have put that sic dog down when daddy is away. Importantly though one pyscho dictator would breed more pyscho's, not if he kils them all though

A flaw of how somebody who was castrated was wearing the same pants. He definitely reeked really? A finger gone is a finger lost but maybe I had missed that?

I now the series loves fetish in many strange ways but the whole incest concept is stretching it far. Having had the Targaryens, Lannisters, Arryn's. Now the Greyjoys I know Asha had shared a grope on the horse, she also wanted to nurse baby Theon back to sleep. Although seriously to charge off and abandon her father orders, her Command to achieve this is so questionable as an assumed heir. She had considered Theon weak not worthy giving him the easy task. Then warning him of his mistake and offered him a return home. Not that kind of brother sister relationship to be expected from an Ironborn.

Boltons while be flaying sausages till christmas as 50 hard mens grapples get stretched without the guidebook

[The Mondrian Oak]

Finding the entire line on these add scenes to be questionable?

Theon as a Stark apprentice couldn't identifty the Deadfort from Torhen Square? Didn't recognised a Stark Bannerman.

These new lines have added to the bastards identity giving him pyschotic nature, but in a more comedy way or the recognisable clockwork orange cliche sociopath. Missing largely any storyline of why the Bastard has his nature why he is that demented. Briefly some indictation of his childhood, but glancing over much more. Reek wasnt an epiphany it had history. The Hunt was questionable killing his own men, somebody would have put that sic dog down when daddy is away. Importantly though one pyscho dictator would breed more pyscho's not if he kils them all

A flaw of how somebody who was castrated was wearing the same pants. He definitely reeked really? A finger gone is a finger lost but maybe I had missed that?

I now the series loves fetish in many strange ways but the whole incest concept is stretching it far. Having had the Targaryens, Lannisters, Arryn's. Now the Greyjoys I know Asha had shared a grope on the horse, she also wanted to nurse baby Theon back to sleep. Although seriously to charge off and abandon her father orders, her Command to achieve this is so questionable as an assumed heir. She had considered Theon weak not worthy giving him the easy task. Then warning him of his mistake and offered him a return home. Not that kind of brother sister relationship to be expected from an Ironborn.

Boltons while be flaying sausages till christmas as 50 hard mens grapples get stretched without the guidebook

May I tell you I haven't understood nearly anything of what you wrote? Expecially the incest part, and the final sentence. Will you explain to me what you meant?

[Pinkie Baelish]

I now the series loves fetish in many strange ways but the whole incest concept is stretching it far. Having had the Targaryens, Lannisters, Arryn's. Now the Greyjoys I know Asha had shared a grope on the horse, she also wanted to nurse baby Theon back to sleep. Although seriously to charge off and abandon her father orders, her Command to achieve this is so questionable as an assumed heir. She had considered Theon weak not worthy giving him the easy task. Then warning him of his mistake and offered him a return home. Not that kind of brother sister relationship to be expected from an Ironborn.

Seriously, WHAT THE FUCK.

Asha never said anything about nursing Theon back to sleep, she said she felt like strangling him. And are you honestly suggesting that Asha is trying to save Theon because she's in love with him? How do you even reach that conclusion?

Also, Lysa breastfeeding Robert at age 7 is weird as hell, but it's not incestuous.

[Boi]

May I tell you I haven't understood nearly anything of what you wrote? Expecially the incest part, and the final sentence. Will you explain to me what you meant?

It takes reek to? Let me wreak some havoc into your thoughts.

The grope on the horse Great Wyk, the baby Theon in Winterfell. Really, but not incest in a history of every other house in that act what is one more, when it comes to sausages?

If men are hard they are mean and strong etc you must know of the pun. However they used grapples at Winterfell, why a castle, Deadfort is a sausage factory.

[The Mondrian Oak]

It takes reek to? Let me wreak some havoc into your thoughts.

The grope on the horse Great Wyk, the baby Theon in winterfell. Really, but not incest in a history of every other house in that act what is one more, when it comes to sausages?

If men are hard they are mean and strong etc you must know of the pun. However they used grapples at Winterfell now we understand why a castle Deadfort is a sausage factory.

Mate, I'm sorry, I really don't understand what you say. Sorry again.

[Miodrag]

These new lines have added to the bastards identity giving him pyschotic nature, but more a comedy way or the recognisable clockwork orange cliche sociopath.

Thanks for refreshing my memory. It's been decades since I watched "A Clockwork Orange" so I've completely forgotten of it and of it's main character, arguably the most influential movie sociopath ever. He was copied in movies and TV so many times, it's impossible to keep the record. Once you recall Malcolm McDowell's Alex from ACO, it indeed looks like Rheon's trying to imitate him, especially with his eyes. (And not just Rheon, but the writers too, if I may add: Alex doesn't have any trouble with savagely hurting his comrades - not unlike TV Ramsay in the fake escape.) And D&D are of the generation that was heavily impressed by "A Clockwork Orange". I'm several years younger than them, and Alex was iconic even with my generation.

Their choice may be understandable, but with this recollection, I'm even more sorry they didn't go with the book version of Ramsay, but with an old (albeit clearly forgotten to a certain extent) and overused cliche.

[Boi]

Mate, I'm sorry, I really don't understand what you say. Sorry again.

Must be love. You got me wrong I don't dig sausages :P

Thanks for refreshing my memory. It's been decades since I watched "A Clockwork Orange" so I've completely forgotten of it and of it's main character, arguably the most influential movie sociopath ever. He was copied in movies and TV so many times, it's impossible to keep the record. Once you recall Malcolm McDowell's Alex from ACO, it indeed looks like Rheon's trying to imitate him, especially with his eyes. (And not just Rheon, but the writers too, if I may add: Alex doesn't have any trouble with savagely hurting his comrades - not unlike TV Ramsay in the fake escape.) And D&D are of the generation that was heavily impressed by "A Clockwork Orange". I'm several years younger than them, and Alex was iconic even with my generation.

Their choice may be understandable, but with this recollection, I'm even more sorry they didn't go with the book version of Ramsay, but with an old (albeit clearly forgotten to a certain extent) and overused cliche.

You entirely misunderstand me no disrespect intended. As an all time great british actor, who had even turned down a knighthood. Malcolm McDowell's preformance in Clockwork Orange was an absolute masterpiece of talented acting from an award winning film gaining cult notoriety as an epic. Setting many future presidents of sociopathic preformances.

I rewatched this film again 2 nights ago on a movie channel why I have seen certain resemblance to this current show, and would go so far as to say almost cliche in certain likenesses to character. Everyone copies it, Jacks in Sons of Anarchy recently with the snow globe, almost in likeness to singing in the rain.

My point was rather of specific. Why the bastard would have had a specific history an identity. Why reek wasn't an epiphany. The hunt possibly required his brotherhood of sociopaths as they breed under that dictator, but not if he had killed them. The material could have been fresher then modelling a look and certain behaviour from a model which set world performances of that cult masterpiece?

Although as a character has been shown as being one of the scariest and meaniest bastards in Westeros and he does a fine preformance in showing this. Although having plenty of other material on his identity, history, behaviour and nature which if in some disregard brings about a source of critique from not being as fresh

[Weeping Sore]

Must be love. You got me wrong I don't dig sausages :P

You entirely misunderstand me no disrespect intended. As an all time great british actor, who had even turned down a knighthood. Malcolm McDowell's preformance in Clockwork Orange was an absolute masterpiece of talented acting from an award winning film gaining cult notoriety as an epic. Setting many future presidents of sociopathic preformances.

I rewatched this film again 2 nights ago on a movie channel why I have seen certain resemblance to this current show, and would go so far as to say almost cliche in certain likenesses to character. Everyone copies it, Jacks in Sons of Anarchy recently with the snow globe, almost in likeness to singing in the rain.

My point was rather of specific. Why the bastard would have had a specific history an identity. Why reek wasn't an epiphany. The hunt possibly required his brotherhood of sociopaths as they breed under that dictator, but not if he had killed them. The material could have been fresher then modelling a look and certain behaviour from a model which set world performances of that cult masterpiece?

Although as a character has been shown as being one of the scariest and meaniest bastards in Westeros and he does a fine preformance in showing this. Although having plenty of other material on his identity, history, behaviour and nature which if in some disregard brings about a source of critique from not being as fresh

The Ramsay/ Theon arc in s3 was probably 2 scenes too long, and while brilliant at turns, a bit of a dissapointment for those expecting the suffocating horror of Book Ramsay.

If the incest you're referring to is part of a proposed Yara-as-bride-of-Ramsay scenario, I think if that happened, Yara would kill Ramsay before the marriage was consumated.

Definitely see the Malcolm MacDowell connection in Iwan Rheon's performance.

What do you think about attributing one of the original Reek's predelictions to Show Ramsay-making him a necrophile? He seems less like a biting-and-clawing brute rapist, but necrophilia feels like a good creeeepy motivation for killing women.

Ramsay on his wedding night: "I said HOLD STILL. HOLD STILL!"

Ok, there's something wrong with me.

[Boi]

The guy makes Joffery look like a kitten in the books. The northerens the Flayed Man where some of the most evil people in the realm being as bad as Wildlings which is why the Starks had crushed them in lore. Wearing the skins of their victims into war and worse.

Plain Jeyne he is macabre with and deserves his fate being utterly demented sick bestially every disgusting curse at. Why is Yara/Asha in the mix? She would chop his balls off and stuff them down his throat? It cannot work in their charcter arc's as he needs to marry a Stark for his claim to Winterfell and to hold the remaining bannermen to his title. Roose Yara/Asha doesn't makes sense when he has that Fat Frey wife got his weight in gold. Probably having some Freys as escort upon his return?

I would hate to think where that follows don't go there. Next he will be skull f..king wights he got some dragonglass poker or something wrong in his pocket.

I think the wildlings will get him and skin him alive as they try to recover Mance? Asha probably escapes to warn them. Don't know with the series was counting on a Moot though probably a hold up in Torhen Square for Stannis. Angry chants at the Deadfort come get us Bastard replying I got a sausage or giving them a reeks finger????

Motivating that Bastard is the hunt with his dogs naming them from his victims while keeping reek as animal. Not really clever but psychotically prone to those episodes. His dad Roose the Leech knows the game better