Would returning to seven independent kingdoms be such a good idea?

[Aleksandar]

For about 5 reply's i got from my post i will just put one i found responding to yours

No, we would not see a single war on the scale. That's correct. What we would see it a constant state of war when the sides are always shifting and alliances made and broken to get an edge. So the situation would basically be the same but with no end prize or final object that can cause things to calm down once in a while.

They were smaller yes, but they were also more or less non-stop with no periods of peace in between. Therefor I would think that these constant wars would be worse than big ones once in a while, no matter how unfortunate these things are.

[Aleksandar]

The Targs ruled for 280 years. In which they had the faith militant rebellion which lasted years and was extremely brutal earning Maegor the cruel his name. After that there was the conquest of Dorne - a needless war which saw 50k+ die in an unsuccessful campaign. After that there was the Dance of the Dragons - another continent wide, bitterly fought war which was basically a civil war between the Targs, After that we get the BlackFyre rebellion which was also continent wide and a far bigger war than the 7 kingdoms used to have before. After that there was Dagon Greyjoy's reaving - which directly affected at least 3 of the seven Kingdoms and the IT took no action against the GreyJoys, forcing the Starks and Lannisters to defend themselves with no aid. After that there was the wildling invasion of raymun redbeard and again the IT refused to send aid to the North forcing the Starks to defend themselves. After this we get the war of the ninepenny Kings - again a massive war. And after that there was Robert's Rebellion - which I think was about as big as the BlackFyre rebellion.

I'm not even counting the minor disputes like the Reynes of Castamere or Skagosi rebellion or the defiance of duskendale or the continuous ironborn reaving. So in conclusion - the IT has meant far bigger wars with only slightly reduced frequency.

And as for your estimate that the Baratheon rule has killed more people than BlackFyre and Dance combined - Pure BS.

I am laughing out loud .....So where shell i begin....

Faith militant rebellion....

I think GRRM was inspired to put that in books so he could have some church inquisition..By the way that's burning people alive for not believing in same faith.....So in Martin's world before conquest u had Sept's(Churches) that had Priests(Septons)...and thay had estates that were probably more richer then some noble houses(like in Europe 500 years ago)....and those Sept's had also knight's who fought for Sept's....and so on...well when dear Septon's dislike some one they tend to burn them for not believe in same faith( reason is always that they are heretic's)....wife's cheating husband BUT not other way..scientist's that believe that GRRM's world is actually rotating around a moon(xD) witches(they would probably burn all stark children)....and so on....Let me just add one of European's biggest believer's in church and their doing Bloody Marry who burnt over 300 people (heretic's) in her regain for not believing in same faith....

Unfortunately there were no kings in Europe like Meagor who would dare the church.....because even king's were afraid of them...and there were terribleconsequences because of that...

In GRRM world Sept's taught thay could dare DRAGONKINGS whit out consequences...well they were wrong....I personally find Meagor's methods how he delt whit faith of seven amusing.....(offering golden dragons for burnt septs or head of septons or knight's who fought in faith militant )....i would call him brilliant not cruel....Faith militant was one of most terrible things that existed in Westeros and Targaryans got rid of them.....

And just to mention that in one year Faith of seven probably burnt more heretic's then Aerys in his lifetime....

Conquest of Dorna....

Well i shall just say that young dragon Daeron I started conquering Dorna about 160 after Aegon's landing.....wich means there were 160 years of peace between Stormlands Reach and Dorna.....BC they were constantly in war.....million's died in those constant war's between them....and even after Young Dragon's conquest Dorna finally joined 7 kingdoms......I'd say that's very successful...

About Dagon Greyjon's rebelion.....

Was it worse then Balon's?........Targaryan's freed Riverlands from their rule.....Ironborn are some advanced and more organized pirates.....i don't think you could blame Targ's for their lust for raping stealling and burning the westeros western shore when some stupid greyjon get's born....And when he is born it is duty of Guverner of West to protect king's peace on the west....who is Lansiter.....And by the way saying that IT didn't send aid read Dunk&Egg novels and you will find that King Aegon V(prince aegon back then) went their whit Dunkan the tall.....

About Invasion of Raymun Redbeard..... LOL

Stark's are guvernor's of North it is their job to protect peace on North in times of need.....The times of need were when Raymun Redbeard invaded .....and our dear guvernor of the north delt whit him...i don't know what you expect from IT.....

Raynes of castamare...

I don't know why you put them here....they rebeled agenst their liege lord and payed the price.....what that has to do whit IT?

SO in their 300 year's of regain there we only 2 mayor rebelion's Dance whit dragons and Blackfyre rebellion......

That's 300 of peace.....

[NorthRemembers]

Minus the Andal invasion as someone pointed out, all of the largest wars in Westeros revolved around the IT. Why? Simple. Having an IT makes EVERYONE a player in the game, with stakes. So everyone will get involved sooner or later.

[JonathanTheBold]

The fact is that even the union of the Seven Kingdom didn`t stop feudalistic conflicts. There were hardly a generation or two without some rebeliion. All in all, IT as institution failed. And the time has come to seek for new solutions.

P.S. Why does everyone seem to end OPs with `Discuss.`. Is it an order or some not so polite way to ask for opinion?

when the targs had dragons there was 1 rebellion in 140 years hardly a rebellion ever generation and second if there wasn't an iron Throne was there to mediate things with differnt lords the kingdoms would be in chaos. The iron born would rape and pillage every where. The reach Storm land and dorne would be at constant war again. The river land would be subjugated by either the westeners or iron born or some one in a week. It doesn't matter how you feel about the Targs what matters is the peace they created

[Mladen]

when the targs had dragons there was 1 rebellion in 140 years hardly a rebellion ever generation and second if there wasn't an iron Throne was there to mediate things with differnt lords the kingdoms would be in chaos. The iron born would rape and pillage every where. The reach Storm land and dorne would be at constant war again. The river land would be subjugated by either the westeners or iron born or some one in a week. It doesn't matter how you feel about the Targs what matters is the peace they created

And when there were dragons, there was one of the deadliest civil war - Dance of dragons. Point is Targaryens ruled with iron fist when they had weapons of mass destruction. Their unfittnes to rule showed when they lost dragons

[Jasta11]

One of the most common theories about the series' ending is that the Iron Throne will be dissolved and the seven kingdoms will become independent again. But is it really such a good idea? Wouldn't that eventually cause the same sort of feudalistic conflict and disunity that allowed Aegon the Conqueror to invade and conquer Westeros?

I don't know. It seems to me that if there were seven independent kingdoms, the scene would still be a lot similar to the state of disarray Westeros is in right now. Because as of now, Westeros is a unified kingdom only in name.

What are your thoughts on this? Discuss.

Well, for thousands of years the Kingdoms were independant, and judging from the fact that the same families are still in place and the last rebellion in the North was 700 years ago it must not have been an unstable hotbed of endless war, save maybe in the Riverlands. Contrast with the IT era, which saw no less than 6 major wars (Aegon's Conquest, Dance of the Dragons, Blackfyre rebellion, conquest of Dorne, Robert's Rebellion, War of the Five Kings) with a 7th on the way with Dany, Aegon, the Vale, Dorne, Stannis, and the remnats of the Tyrell/Lannister alliance raring to go. All this in 300 years! These wars are caused by the Iron Throne; if it doesn't exist, there is little reason for the games of intrigue and alliances required to keep it. Whereas save for disloyal vassals like the Bolton/Tarbecks, no one denies who rightfully rules the separate Kingdoms. Hell the only major family that was ever wiped out as far as we know are the Gardeners thanks to Aegon the Conqueror.

Apart from the Riverlands being free from the Ironborn, I still fail to see how the Iron Throne has improved Westeros in any sort of way. ''Strength in unity'' doesn't mean much when the only thing keeping the ''unity', together is either dragons or a whole friggin lot of scheming, backstabbing and general violence. I'd rather everyone rule their own backyard.

I'm also rather opposed to the same guy ruling the North, the Iron Islands, Dorne and the Westerlands. These cultures are just too different. It's like trying to put all of Europe under one rule. Just no.

[Barty]

I am laughing out loud .....So where shell i begin....

Faith militant rebellion....

I think GRRM was inspired to put that in books so he could have some church inquisition..By the way that's burning people alive for not believing in same faith.....So in Martin's world before conquest u had Sept's(Churches) that had Priests(Septons)...and thay had estates that were probably more richer then some noble houses(like in Europe 500 years ago)....and those Sept's had also knight's who fought for Sept's....and so on...well when dear Septon's dislike some one they tend to burn them for not believe in same faith( reason is always that they are heretic's)....wife's cheating husband BUT not other way..scientist's that believe that GRRM's world is actually rotating around a moon(xD) witches(they would probably burn all stark children)....and so on....Let me just add one of European's biggest believer's in church and their doing Bloody Marry who burnt over 300 people (heretic's) in her regain for not believing in same faith....

Unfortunately there were no kings in Europe like Meagor who would dare the church.....because even king's were afraid of them...and there were terribleconsequences because of that...

In GRRM world Sept's taught thay could dare DRAGONKINGS whit out consequences...well they were wrong....I personally find Meagor's methods how he delt whit faith of seven amusing.....(offering golden dragons for burnt septs or head of septons or knight's who fought in faith militant )....i would call him brilliant not cruel....Faith militant was one of most terrible things that existed in Westeros and Targaryans got rid of them.....

And just to mention that in one year Faith of seven probably burnt more heretic's then Aerys in his lifetime....

Read up - the faith militant rebellion was all out war. There were bloody battles between the crown and the faith, not some random burnings. The battle of bitterbridge, the battle of the great fork are just 2 such examples(of huge battles) and they took place in the first year of Maegors rule - first year out of 6 years of his rule in which the entire continent was in a continuous state of war.

Conquest of Dorna....

Well i shall just say that young dragon Daeron I started conquering Dorna about 160 after Aegon's landing.....wich means there were 160 years of peace between Stormlands Reach and Dorna.....BC they were constantly in war.....million's died in those constant war's between them....and even after Young Dragon's conquest Dorna finally joined 7 kingdoms......I'd say that's very successful...

Have you read the books?? 160 years of peace?? As soon as Aegon died in 37 AL, the faith rebellion started and went on for the next 11 years. After that we have the long rule Jaehaerys which was mainly peaceful but then again around 120AL the Dance of dragons began which lasted for 2 years. Then another 30 years later the conquest of Dorne takes place - in which Daeron loses 10k men to take Dorne, another 50k to hold it and as soon as he dies - Dorne goes back to being independent(hence the unsuccessful campaign)

About Dagon Greyjon's rebelion.....

Was it worse then Balon's?........Targaryan's freed Riverlands from their rule.....Ironborn are some advanced and more organized pirates.....i don't think you could blame Targ's for their lust for raping stealling and burning the westeros western shore when some stupid greyjon get's born....And when he is born it is duty of Guverner of West to protect king's peace on the west....who is Lansiter.....And by the way saying that IT didn't send aid read Dunk&Egg novels and you will find that King Aegon V(prince aegon back then) went their whit Dunkan the tall.....

Dagon GreyJoy's reaving was far worse than Balon's - it lasted years with the IT doing absolutely nothing to stop him. Also why the fuck should the Lannisters and Starks send taxes and men to fight for the IT when the IT does not even defend it's subjects from pirates and reavers like Dagon or the wildlings.

About Invasion of Raymun Redbeard..... LOL

Stark's are guvernor's of North it is their job to protect peace on North in times of need.....The times of need were when Raymun Redbeard invaded .....and our dear guvernor of the north delt whit him...i don't know what you expect from IT.....

What do I expect from the King when one of his kingdoms is being attacked by a foreign body?? I expect him to send soldiers to defeat the invasion instead of sitting on his iron chair and saying that the Northmen will defend themselves. If a king cannot be bothered to go and defend his own kingdom then he is no king.

Raynes of castamare...

I don't know why you put them here....they rebeled agenst their liege lord and payed the price.....what that has to do whit IT?

The point was to show that even with Targs on the throne the petty disputes did not stop but were now joined by Large, continent wide wars.

SO in their 300 year's of regain there we only 2 mayor rebelion's Dance whit dragons and Blackfyre rebellion......

That's 300 of peace.....

Learn how to count.

[JonathanTheBold]

And when there were dragons, there was one of the deadliest civil war - Dance of dragons. Point is Targaryens ruled with iron fist when they had weapons of mass destruction. Their unfittnes to rule showed when they lost dragons

They controlled 7 kingdoms from kings landing with out dragons for another 150 years almost that's no small feet just look at our mid evil history a dynasty lasting that long is pretty good so they must have been doing something right and just about every rebellion that's happend has been about sessions not problems with the Targs minus RR and the faith militant

[joluoto]

Doesn't matter if one kingdom or nine. There still wouldn't be peace. There was no peace before the Targaryens and there was no peace under them.

[Barty]

They controlled 7 kingdoms from kings landing with out dragons for another 150 years almost that's no small feet just look at our mid evil history a dynasty lasting that long is pretty good so they must have been doing something right and just about every rebellion that's happend has been about sessions not problems with the Targs minus RR and the faith militant

You're comparing to our world - which is hardly fair. This is a fantasy setting where Dynasties like the Starks and Lannisters and Arynns have ruled for thousands of years. In front of that a 280 year old dynasty which barely held on through multiple wars is a failure.

[JonathanTheBold]

You're comparing to our world - which is hardly fair. This is a fantasy setting where Dynasties like the Starks and Lannisters and Arynns have ruled for thousands of years. In front of that a 280 year old dynasty which barely held on through multiple wars is a failure.

and they were brought to their knees by three siblings from a doomed empire and their pets

[Mladen]

They controlled 7 kingdoms from kings landing with out dragons for another 150 years almost that's no small feet just look at our mid evil history a dynasty lasting that long is pretty good so they must have been doing something right and just about every rebellion that's happend has been about sessions not problems with the Targs minus RR and the faith militant

You're comparing to our world - which is hardly fair. This is a fantasy setting where Dynasties like the Starks and Lannisters and Arynns have ruled for thousands of years. In front of that a 280 year old dynasty which barely held on through multiple wars is a failure.

This is a good argument. Especially given how many troubles happened in that 150 years.

The point is, you can rule such big Kingdom, only if you have something to control them - dragons. With dragons gone, everything fell into decay, and Targaryen madness provoked RR. It was the end of tragic dinastic rule.

[Mladen]

and they were brought to their knees by three siblings from a doomed empire and their pets

They were brought to their knees by dragons, not by Aegon. When dragons couldn`t fight like in Dorne, you would think Aegon would show his power, but as we know he and many after him didn`t.

[JonathanTheBold]

This is a good argument. Especially given how many troubles happened in that 150 years.

The point is, you can rule such big Kingdom, only if you have something to control them - dragons. With dragons gone, everything fell into decay, and Targaryen madness provoked RR. It was the end of tragic dinastic rule.

It doesn't have to be the Targs my point was you need the iron Throne to keep the kings/lords of the seven kingdoms from eating each other alive look at all the war and conquest pre Targaryns and your get a picture of a continent eating its self

[Mladen]

It doesn't have to be the Targs my point was you need the iron Throne to keep the kings/lords of the seven kingdoms from eating each other alive look at all the war and conquest pre Targaryns and your get a picture of a continent eating its self

And what we have even with IT? Look at War of 5 Kings. Who cared about IT`s orders? Arryns, Martells stayed out of it, Lannisters fought with Starks and Tully, Tyrells were also in it since the beginning, also we had Greyjoys. It`s not like IT had power to subdue Wo5K.

[JonathanTheBold]

They were brought to their knees by dragons, not by Aegon. When dragons couldn`t fight like in Dorne, you would think Aegon would show his power, but as we know he and many after him didn`t.

Dorne fought guerrilla style attacking and then disappearing before the Targaryens could really do anything. Vietnam did the same thing to the U.S and was successful but that doesn't mean the U.S wasn't powerful we just couldn't fight shadows so your ague ment is flawed

[JonathanTheBold]

And what we have even with IT? Look at War of 5 Kings. Who cared about IT`s orders? Arryns, Martells stayed out of it, Lannisters fought with Starks and Tully, Tyrells were also in it since the beginning, also we had Greyjoys. It`s not like IT had power to subdue Wo5K.

3 of the 5 kings in the Wo5K wanted the IT and the IT won it so clearly they did

[Mladen]

Dorne fought guerrilla style attacking and then disappearing before the Targaryens could really do anything. Vietnam did the same thing to the U.S and was successful but that doesn't mean the U.S wasn't powerful we just couldn't fight shadows so your ague ment is flawed

Actually it isn`t. If they wanted Dorne, they should just break it, but they couldn`t. Dornish fought them very well. Even Aegon`s sister went to Sunspear where Princess Martell told her basically to f*ck off. And then Dorne remained independent for another 150 years. You would think they had force to crush it down but obviously they didn`t.

3 of the 5 kings in the Wo5K wanted the IT and the IT won it so clearly they did

And what about other Great Houses and Kings. Who cared about Joffrey`s orders?

[Perfidious Algernon]

And what we have even with IT? Look at War of 5 Kings. Who cared about IT`s orders? Arryns, Martells stayed out of it, Lannisters fought with Starks and Tully, Tyrells were also in it since the beginning, also we had Greyjoys. It`s not like IT had power to subdue Wo5K.

Agreed. The IT by itself isn't strong enough to genuinely unite the 7K. You need a dragon for that.

[JonathanTheBold]

Actually it isn`t. If they wanted Dorne, they should just break it, but they couldn`t. Dornish fought them very well. Even Aegon`s sister went to Sunspear where Princess Martell told her basically to f*ck off. And then Dorne remained independent for another 150 years. You would think they had force to crush it down but obviously they didn`t.

And what about other Great Houses and Kings. Who cared about Joffrey`s orders?

And she could have roasted her alive right there but didn't for some reason it's unknown why but she should have and dorne would have won I garunte Ageon would gone all Harren hall on her that would have that.