WildBlood Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Jaime was really the only other Lannister to treat Tyrion with any bit of respect, so I think Jaime would have no reason not to trust him... Except for besmirching his lovers name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Jaime was really the only other Lannister to treat Tyrion with any bit of respect, so I think Jaime would have no reason not to trust him... Except for besmirching his lovers name.Tyrion like Cersei often tries to pain himself as the victim. Genna seems to have a lot of respect for Tyrion, Kevan was always fair to him and Gerion was kind to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBlood Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Tyrion like Cersei often tries to pain himself as the victim. Genna seems to have a lot of respect for Tyrion, Kevan was always fair to him and Gerion was kind to him.I was making the point that Jaime had no reason NOT to believe Tyrion when he told Jaime of her promiscuity and Jaime refused to believe because he was blinded by his love for her. It wasn't until Lancel admitted to bedding her that Jaime just started to believe it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 I agree with you here, but I would like to come to Jaime's defense. The last thing he wanted to do was break his oath to Catelyn. He is tired of having his honor being compared to a bucket of shit. In this instance he took a leaf from Tywin's book, and took a no half measures policy. He was either going to end the siege peacefully and not break his oath, or he was going to go all out, and break his oath with a flurry. In this case he did what he had to, in order to keep his oath. Did he mean what he said about the baby, I think he did, but you can't argue that it didn't worked, and that he never actually broke his oath.If Jaime actually cared about his Oaths and honor then he would have never went to Riverrun in the first place to end the siege. Seeing how he had no obligation to go there besides his desire to serve his vile family in violation of his oaths and vows that he supposedly cares so much about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groat Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 If Jaime actually cared about his Oaths and honor then he would have never went to Riverrun in the first place to end the siege. Seeing how he had no obligation to go there besides his desire to serve his vile family in violation of his oaths and vows that he supposedly cares so much about.He is lord commander of the KG, and was ordered to end the fighting in the Riverlands by the crown. He expressed a strong desire to be beside his king the whole time he was away. So apart from being ordered to go, he is also doing this to serve the Tyrells. Also, to call his entire family vile is a bit narrow minded. I'm sure there are plenty of Lannisters who have never been involved with politics, and who's only crime is having blonde hair.Jaime never made an oath to forsake his family. He vowed to never take up arms against the North, the Riverlands, or any of their allies and to return the Stark girls home. Since his return, he has attempted to do both of these.If you truly believe Jaime cares nothing about his oath to Catelyn, I suggest you reread the text. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dany Girl Posted June 21, 2013 Author Share Posted June 21, 2013 1-How do you figure this, when we have his POV the entire time the Wed Redding was being planned and executed, and he had no knowledge of it, nor any concievable way to stop it?2-Uuuh, this is Robb Stark who does this.1- "the Lannisters send their regards" or something like that, who was the last Lannister Bolton saw? No, he didn't sit down and plan it, but he saw to it happening by swaying Bolton to their side and promising no punishment for his help. 2-i said it was Robb. He doesn't slaughter innocent people and even punished his people for killing pows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 If Jaime actually cared about his Oaths and honor then he would have never went to Riverrun in the first place to end the siege. Seeing how he had no obligation to go there besides his desire to serve his vile family in violation of his oaths and vows that he supposedly cares so much about.He was ordered there by his king. He says it himself, his oath to Tommen comes first. Everybody in the series is an oathbreaker whether it is cheating on their spouse of rebelling against the king. Jaime goes to the Riverlands and ends two sieges with no bloodshed. He treats the people fairly, does not start stupid fights for his pride and punishes men, who break the law. What more would you have him doI was making the point that Jaime had no reason NOT to believe Tyrion when he told Jaime of her promiscuity and Jaime refused to believe because he was blinded by his love for her. It wasn't until Lancel admitted to bedding her that Jaime just started to believe it.At that particular moment he had no reason to believe Tyrion, but generally I think he would have believed Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groat Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 1- "the Lannisters send their regards" or something like that, who was the last Lannister Bolton saw? No, he didn't sit down and plan it, but he saw to it happening by swaying Bolton to their side and promising no punishment for his help. Are you actually suggesting Jaime aided in swaying Bolton to betray Robb? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 1- "the Lannisters send their regards" or something like that, who was the last Lannister Bolton saw? No, he didn't sit down and plan it, but he saw to it happening by swaying Bolton to their side and promising no punishment for his help. 2-i said it was Robb. He doesn't slaughter innocent people and even punished his people for killing pows1. Even if he did sway Bolton to his side, which I don't believe he did what would be wrong with that?2. Robb is at war. He causes the death of innocent people too and his men commit just as many enormities as the Lannisters. The average peasant does not care if it is a wolf or lion; they are all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBlood Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 1- "the Lannisters send their regards" or something like that, who was the last Lannister Bolton saw? No, he didn't sit down and plan it, but he saw to it happening by swaying Bolton to their side and promising no punishment for his help. 2-i said it was Robb. He doesn't slaughter innocent people and even punished his people for killing powsBolton released Jaime from Harrenhal to ensure tywin didn't think Roose had anything to do with the removal of his hand. Upon leaving, Roose says send my regards to Lord Tywin, Jaime says send my regards to Robb. There is no text that says Jaime knew anything of the RW. And I am definitely not one to take Jaimes side LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 He is lord commander of the KG, and was ordered to end the fighting in the Riverlands by the crown.He was ordered there by his king.When did Stannis order Jaime to take Riverrun? Seeing how Jaime fully knows that Tommen is not his legitimate king thus Jaime holds no actual oath of alliegence to follow Tommen's commands. Moreover, as a member of the Kingsguard he forsaked his family by his oaths thus he doesn't even owe House Lannister anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groat Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 When did Stannis order Jaime to take Riverrun? Seeing how Jaime fully knows that Tommen is not his legitimate king thus Jaime holds no actual oath of alliegence to follow Tommen's commands. Moreover, as a member of the Kingsguard he forsaked his family by his oaths thus he doesn't even owe House Lannister anything.So you are argueing that Jaime is not on a redemption arc because he doesn't serve Stannis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ McLannister Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 I assumed that the plans had been negotiated between Roose/The Freys and Tywin before Jaime showed up. That doesn't mean Jaime didn't sit by and allow it to happen, but it wasn't his idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrunderhill Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 When did Stannis order Jaime to take Riverrun? Seeing how Jaime fully knows that Tommen is not his legitimate king thus Jaime holds no actual oath of alliegence to follow Tommen's commands. Moreover, as a member of the Kingsguard he forsaked his family by his oaths thus he doesn't even owe House Lannister anything.Tommen is his son, what do you want him to do? If he could take Tommen and leave for Casterly Rock he would. His past actions have created a mess, but seriously what would you have him do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groat Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 I assumed that the plans had been negotiated between Roose/The Freys and Tywin before Jaime showed up.That doesn't mean Jaime didn't sit by and allow it to happen, but it wasn't his idea.How could he sit by allow it it happen when he didn't know what it was or that it was happening? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Tommen is his son, what do you want him to do? If he could take Tommen and leave for Casterly Rock he would. His past actions have created a mess, but seriously what would you have him do?Well saying he has no problem allowing the murderers of his sons go free because of his own guilt, maybe he could just ignore Tommen's commands. Hell, he could have just done what Ned hoped Cersei would do.Both would be more fulfilling his oaths then what he decided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dany Girl Posted June 21, 2013 Author Share Posted June 21, 2013 Are you actually suggesting Jaime aided in swaying Bolton to betray Robb?in promising no retribution for his earlier siding with him, yes, he helped. He condoned the murder of hundreds if not thousands of people. Bolton would not have so readily switched sides without having that assurance and now look where Bolton is thanks to the Lannisters... running Wintetfell with his nasty little bastard.I won't deny he has grown and changed during the story, no one could go through what he did without some change. But I don't think it's enough to actually make him redeemable. The most change comes in DWD after being betrayed by his sister. I think he's just feeling sorry for himself now that his family has fallen apart, but he'll go right back to his old ways soon enough. It'll take a lot more for me to think he's redeemable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBlood Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 I assumed that the plans had been negotiated between Roose/The Freys and Tywin before Jaime showed up.That doesn't mean Jaime didn't sit by and allow it to happen, but it wasn't his idea.The only chance Jaime had of knowing was the convo about his release and it was never even hinted at Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 Tommen is his son, what do you want him to do? If he could take Tommen and leave for Casterly Rock he would. His past actions have created a mess, but seriously what would you have him do?I know your not asking me this but Jamie could be a man and own up to his crimes. You know man up and take responsibility for his actions and take the punishments. But Jamie won't own up to his trying to kill a child or having an affair with his sister/queen and putting his bastards on the throne which resulted in a civil war that has killed thousands and have made the country vulnerable to a walking dead attack. Jamie is in a position to do much even taking Tommen and running back to the Rock but he won't be cares about his life to much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groat Posted June 21, 2013 Share Posted June 21, 2013 in promising no retribution for his earlier siding with him, yes, he helped. He condoned the murder of hundreds if not thousands of people. Bolton would not have so readily switched sides without having that assurance and now look where Bolton is thanks to the Lannisters... running Wintetfell with his nasty little bastard.Bolton had already switched sides, and the Red Wedding was going to happen. Do you even know what the word condone means? Suffice it to say, Jaime does not condone the murder of hundreds if not thousands of people. But I guess he slew Aerys for his ego, not to save the people of KL.Bottom line, Jaime is on a redemption arc. His past crimes are horrible, but the guy certainly has some good in him. If you still don't like him, fine, theres still 2 books, but to deny he is starting to earn some redemption is quite simply ignoring the text.Also, Bolton had Jaime as a prisoner. He had no idea the implications of agreeing with Bolton, he just wanted to go home. But I guess Jaime should have psychically known the red wedding was going to happen, then sacrificed himself for nothing because the RW would still have happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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