A Dwarf's Perspective On Tyrion Lannister

[TheMysteriousOne]

Personally, I still like Tyrion, a lot, but he's not one of my favorite characters anymore. ADWD did it for me, although I didn't start to dislike him because of the 'where do whores go' thing, it was because of his constant self-pity and his nasty thoughts and disgusting behavior. He did some really questionable things in ADWD, but I still sympathize with him.

[protar]

I think the explination of that is not so much that Tyrion is handicapped, but that the Imp lost a lot of fanboys in ADWD.

I know I grew wholeheartedly tired of reading "where do whores go" again and again while all we saw Tyrion mainly doing in his long LONG chapters was drinking, vomitting and taking pisses.

I can only imagine what it must've been like for true fanboys, they must've become rather disgusted considering Tyrion in previous books was all about witticisms, wisecracks, foul mouthery and sexy-time with Shae, all the while experiencing life-death situations and adventures.

As one of the Tyrion "fan boys" I can say I was never bored by Tyrion's chapters if that's what you meant. He certainly got a lot darker, but there were still plenty of wisecracks and plenty of adventures. Personally they were some of my favourite chapters in Dance and he still remains my favourite character.

[Hound Dog]

Although what really pisses me off is when someone presents Tyrion as the worst person to ever live in Westeros, and then go on about how "redeemed" Jaime and Sandor are...

I think that's so absolutely true. People forget so quickly the many wrongs these characters have done (myself included... they're two of my favourites). It's defintely not fair to label Tyrion as more evil than any of the other characters. He's the one person who understands the world. I think he's one of the most empathetic characters in the books and I sympathise with him more than anyone.

Thanks to the original poster for sharing this great post. :)

[Bridgeburners]

I don't know if I can say that I "hate" Tyrion as much as just that my heart was broken by him at the end of aSoS, when he essentially disowned himself from Jamie and killed Shae. While I admit I was more choked up about the Jamie thing, it was the Shae thing that really disillusioned his character for me, especially since it was based on her saying the wrong thing. (I think he choked her just because she slipped up.) Afterwards, his entire dark brooding perspective in aDwD certainly didn't help, but I did find redeeming qualities in his need to psychologically protect Penny from all the grimness of the world.

But I think the reason people seem more sour with Tyrion than Jamie or Clegane is that they just feel more betrayed by the former. Early GoT established our expectations for Sandor and Jamie, and from that point they had nowhere to go but up. And we were all very pleasantly surprised by their further layers and depths of character. With Tyrion, it was essentially the opposite.

I do appreciate the article, and its analysis on Tyrion's clever adoption of cultural expectations. Though I imagine that this is a consistent trait with just about anyone who falls into a largely stereotyped category. However, while reading about this, I recalled sort of a strangely fitting and powerful (in its own way) moment from aDwD that I think is oddly relevant. It talks about Penny's way of coping with her dwarfism. This took some DwD digging for me.

(This is after Tyrion incurs a blow from Jorah after confronting him with the futility of his hopes for winning back Dany's favour. Penny tends to a wounded Tyrion and consoles him.)

"You mustn't mock him. Don't you know anything? You can't talk that way to a big person. They can hurt you. Ser Jorah could have tossed you in the sea. The sailers would have laughed to see you drown. You have to be careful around big people. Be jolly and playful with them, keep them smiling, make them laugh, that's what my father always said. Didn't your father tell you how to act with big people?"

"My father called them smallfolk," said Tyrion, "and he was not what you'd call a jolly man. [....] Still, I take your point. I have a deal to learn about being a dwarf. Perhaps you will be good enough to teach me, in between the jousting and the pig-riding."

(hardcover 528 DwD)

Well, I guess the second part of the quote is less relevant, as it's more of a sort of veiled mockery than genuine appeal by Tyrion. But it worked more towards how he pitied her, and it was interesting to see the difference between their coping mechanisms. With Penny it's far more tragic, because she's truly fighting the tougher battle, what with not having the advantages of being nobility, or a male in Planetos. So she takes the more submissive crowd-pleasing approach. Anyway, that's an interesting take IMO. I would certainly wonder what a Penny PoV would read like, but that would certainly be a tough undertaking for GRRM.

As for Tyrion - I'm still disillusioned and unimpressed with his latest displays. This article certainly helped me appreciate him as a written character far more, but hasn't swayed my disposition towards him as a person as of late.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Although what really pisses me off is when someone presents Tyrion as the worst person to ever live in Westeros, and then go on about how "redeemed" Jaime and Sandor are...

Preach it, Walrus. This is so spot on. The fact that Tyrion has been vilified by people on the forum who excuse similar and sometimes worse acts by their favorites like the Hound and Jaime is so amusing to me.

As one of the Tyrion "fan boys" I can say I was never bored by Tyrion's chapters if that's what you meant. He certainly got a lot darker, but there were still plenty of wisecracks and plenty of adventures. Personally they were some of my favourite chapters in Dance and he still remains my favourite character.

I agree! Having him take this dark turn kept the character interesting for me and while I would get tired of it if TWoW would have more of the self-pitying destructive behavior, I don't think it will be a problem since I expect to see a very different Tyrion in that book.

[Julian Lannister]

Ahh Tyrion. Definitely one of the most unique characters in all fantasy novels, if not all novels in general. I love his wits but like many other casual fans grew tired of him in the latest book. Now Jaime, those chapters just get better and better!

[Littlefingers In The Air]

My problem with people who like Tyrion even after ADWD is that if they're still willing to root for a man who rapes a woman, then where the hell is the line supposed to be drawn? If TWOW came out tomorrow and at 3:45 I read that Littlefinger raped someone, by 3:47 I can promise you my name would be changed and my favorite characters list altered.

[Addam of Hull]

My problem with people who like Tyrion even after ADWD is that if they're still willing to root for a man who rapes a woman, then where the hell is the line supposed to be drawn? If TWOW came out tomorrow and at 3:45 I read that Littlefinger raped someone, by 3:47 I can promise you my name would be changed and my favorite characters list altered.

I think there's a significant difference between why a person may enjoy a fictional character and what they actually think is morally acceptable. For instance, Jaime is a character that I -- and numerous other people -- like, but in real life, the number of people who would befriend someone guilty of trying to kill a young kid would be significantly less. Enjoyment of a character does not equal approval of that character's actions.

[LordBloodraven]

I found the following text in another forum. I wanted to share this gem because it is beautifully written, highly insightful and so touching:

This link to Velazquez should work:

http://wp.patheos.co...asquezDwarf.jpg

I do not know if it is ok with the mods to show the link to the forum where I found this but it feels like academic fraud if I do not give the proper source. Mods?

i wonder if this so very beautiful post impressed you as much as it impressed me.

This is a very beautiful post and it's awesome to have this perspective on Tyrion's character. Spot on. Thank you for the link Woman of War.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

I think there's a significant difference between why a person may enjoy a fictional character and what they actually think is morally acceptable. For instance, Jaime is a character that I -- and numerous other people -- like, but in real life, the number of people who would befriend someone guilty of trying to kill a young kid would be significantly less. Enjoyment of a character does not equal approval of that character's actions.

I like Jaime too but because so much killing goes on in that world, I'm almost inclined to ignore killing except in cases where it's absolutely grotesque, such as what Gregor did to the babes. But while rape is frequent in that world, it happens infrequently enough that I can judge rapists differently than I can killers and murderers.

[LordBloodraven]

My problem with people who like Tyrion even after ADWD is that if they're still willing to root for a man who rapes a woman, then where the hell is the line supposed to be drawn? If TWOW came out tomorrow and at 3:45 I read that Littlefinger raped someone, by 3:47 I can promise you my name would be changed and my favorite characters list altered.

Well, some people root for Roose Bolton. He's beyond redemption but Tyrion isn't. You don't have to like Tyrion to root for him, the struggle against stigma and his insecurities while being one of the most privileged Westerosi is worth the read

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Well, some people root for Roose Bolton. He's beyond redemption but Tyrion isn't. You don't have to like Tyrion to root for him, the struggle against stigma and his insecurities while being one of the most privileged Westerosi is worth the read

Why would I root for someone I don't like? I'll continue to read him only to see him get his comeuppance like the rest of his house will. Cersei is a fascinating read too. I sure as hell don't root for her.

[Father of Hosts]

My problem with people who like Tyrion even after ADWD is that if they're still willing to root for a man who rapes a woman, then where the hell is the line supposed to be drawn? If TWOW came out tomorrow and at 3:45 I read that Littlefinger raped someone, by 3:47 I can promise you my name would be changed and my favorite characters list altered.

The pedophilia doesn't bother you? :cool4:

[Littlefingers In The Air]

The pedophilia doesn't bother you? :cool4:

it would in a modern story where the age limit is higher. The great ones relationship with Sansa is creepy at worst.

[LordBloodraven]

Why would I root for someone I don't like? I'll continue to read him only to see him get his comeuppance like the rest of his house will. Cersei is a fascinating read too. I sure as hell don't root for her.

Because you find a character interesting and you want to see him overcome his failures. Tyrion raped that bedslave but he has it in him to be a better man and to atone for that. You don't have to want him gelded because he committed that vile act

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Because you find a character interesting and you want to see him overcome his failures. Tyrion raped that bedslave but he has it in him to be a better man and to atone for that. You don't have to want him gelded because he committed that vile act

Rape is the point of no return for me both in real life and in regards to GRRMs world. I know what you're saying but I ain't gonna budge on that. You do not rape.

[The Great Walrus]

Rape is the point of no return for me both in real life and in regards to GRRMs world. I know what you're saying but I ain't gonna budge on that. You do not rape.

I still don't understand how you can like someone who helped orchestrate an entire continent wide war, killing tens of thousands, but reject Tyrion for one bad act.

[nirolo]

My problem with people who like Tyrion even after ADWD is that if they're still willing to root for a man who rapes a woman, then where the hell is the line supposed to be drawn? If TWOW came out tomorrow and at 3:45 I read that Littlefinger raped someone, by 3:47 I can promise you my name would be changed and my favorite characters list altered.

Why do you even have a problem with people liking a fictional character in the first place?

Obviously GRRM endowed Tyrion with many sympathetic and admirable qualities so readers would be drawn to him. Not to mention the OP explains it perfectly well why he likes Tyrion.

So if after all this you are still unable to understand Tyrion fans, then maybe you are to set in your believes to see things from our side.

[Katerrinah]

Rape is the point of no return for me both in real life and in regards to GRRMs world. I know what you're saying but I ain't gonna budge on that. You do not rape.

Amen

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Why do you even have a problem with people liking a fictional character in the first place?

Obviously GRRM endowed Tyrion with many sympathetic and admirable qualities so readers would be drawn to him. Not to mention the OP explains it perfectly well why he likes Tyrion.

So if after all this you are still unable to understand Tyrion fans, then maybe you are to set in your believes to see things from our side.

how can I be accused of not understanding things from your side when Tyrion was my third favorite character up until ADWD? When my favorite character is a vile man like Littlefinger? I understand full well why people like him before he rapes someone. I never will understand continuing to like him afterwards.