Americanisms

[Dany Girl]

Potatoes were introduced to Ireland after the New World discovery. This is the reason why the potato famine was so drastic to Ireland, because potatoes were not natural to the land.

Edit: Ninja'd

makes sense, again, thanks. Where potatoes came from was never covered in my educational background. Just heard the Irish almost got wiped out because of potatoes... I since my family originated there, I found that disturbing.

[Lummel]

I knew corn(maize) was American, didn't know about potatoes, or tomatoes. I know some peppers are strictly American, some continue to only grow in specific regions (New Mexico Hatch Chili Peppers, aka amazing!) But I think some peppers are from like Thailand and those areas, also India and surrounding areas, but I could be completely wrong on that.

Thanks for letting me know. This forum can be very educational!

Peppers as in Capsicum are all from the Americas. Before Columbus the far east only had black pepper, mustard seeds and the like to hot up their food.

[Tommens Cat]

Peppers as in Capsicum are all from the Americas. Before Columbus the far east only had black pepper, mustard seeds and the like to hot up their food.

so with peppers, we are talking about environment? unlike corn, which would require cultivation and understanding of biology. i thought peppers may have been cultivated and changed, but if peppers were not part of eur-asia cuisine because of environment, then having peppers in ASOIAF doesn't make any loop holes. as if the environment is right, and they require no special preparation, they should be able to exist.

plus, Planetos isnt really based on our world (earth), i think its based on human society as a whole, so some changes are not really loop holes or problems. corn though, does need to be engineered so to speak, same with bananas.

hmmm, are there any bananas in ASOIAF?

[Stag Country]

they actually do. Harry Potter for example, Britain had the Philosopher's stone, American had Sorcerer's stone. The changes may not be as noticeable to Americans as Brits since our country is so large with many varieties of words being changed due to regional cultures. Here in Northern California we use hella as a substitut for very or a lot, most people in other parts of the country or state even thini it's weird. My cousins in Michigan for example hate it.

People use 'hella' everywhere in the country, but they don't use it in formal writing anywhere....including northern California.

[Tommens Cat]

People use 'hella' everywhere in the country, but they don't use it in formal writing anywhere....including northern California.

i think the point is that is such a diverse society, changes in dictation dont get noticed as much because citizens of said country are used to more fluctuation in media/literature

[Stag Country]

Interesting, I never knew Americans didn't know fortnight, fairly common word.

Most Americans know what a fortnight is. We just don't use the term very often. Those that don't are probably just young.

[Stag Country]

Americans don't even use the possessive version of their when they're supposed to. There is used in almost everything. And don't get me started on the gross misapplication of your.

If you think improper usage of the correct version of "their", "there', and "they're" or "your" and "you're" is unique to America, then I've got some prime beachfront real estate on the Moon that I'd like to sell you.

[Willard/Mitt Lannister]

I'm British and I've heard people use "cunt" against all sorts of people, men; women and children. I think the word itself is an example of the sexist institution that is the English language (if not most or all language) because it's using the female form as an insult. True, people use "dick" and such as an insult, but that word is free of the connotations of weakness associated with female gentitalia.

As for the use of Americanisms, Westeros is in an alternate universe which doesn't share the history and culture of our world and so whichever real-word language we choose to map onto the Common Tongue is completely arbitrary.

This is the most important thing to remember.

[Daecon Dayne]

Good luck with that whole line of argument. BE and AE are 2 branches of the same tree, and you're arguing that BE is the trunk. Even if it is, it makes no odds.

And, no, texting and internet slang are not going to alter the spelling.

"It makes no odds" to what?

And yes, in addition to contributing an entirely new lexicon from electronic language, the structure and spellings of some words have been altered according to their use in texting, and other electronic mediums of language. 'Web-log'>'Weblog'>'Blog', for example. Or are you adamantly suggesting that texting, IM, and other internet-based language will not alter standardised spellings found in the dictionary? The term 'thru' was conceived due to the convenience of its altered spelling (it saved restaurants, cinemas etc. money by not having to pay for the extra letters, a predecessor of 'txtin 2 sve c/ters'). In either case, you're misinformed.

[Dany Girl]

i think the point is that is such a diverse society, changes in dictation dont get noticed as much because citizens of said country are used to more fluctuation in media/literature

this. It was an example of the differing nuances between areas that sorta makes Americans less inclined to notice them.

Also, I've never heard anyone say hella outside CA, especially not before that No Doubt song. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I've never heard it, at least not in the frequency that we use it. And no, it's not meant for formal writing, but kids still use it, they do lose points though.

[Stag Country]

I knew corn(maize) was American, didn't know about potatoes, or tomatoes. I know some peppers are strictly American, some continue to only grow in specific regions (New Mexico Hatch Chili Peppers, aka amazing!) But I think some peppers are from like Thailand and those areas, also India and surrounding areas, but I could be completely wrong on that.

Thanks for letting me know. This forum can be very educational!

Yeah crop origins can make for an interesting study. Oranges are also a tricky one. Most in the US think of Florida or California, but they are thought to have originated in China or Indo-China.

[Dany Girl]

Peppers as in Capsicum are all from the Americas. Before Columbus the far east only had black pepper, mustard seeds and the like to hot up their food.

hmm, again, wasn't aware of that. Never took the time to learn where food originated (except coffee, which rules my life). This has been an interesting experience.

[Stag Country]

Besides, British English is more dapper, inherently English, and it makes more sense. "I could care less" (an American saying, for example) intrinsically denotes caring, whereas it's used to suggest a lack thereof. "I couldn't care less" denotes what it implies.

The phrase "I could care less" is not inherently American nor is it intended to have the meaning you are implying. It's a mistake that has taken root with many people who are just careless with their speech. It's not actually intended to suggest that the person does, in fact, care.

There are many things that don't make any sense at all in "British English". Adding extra letters like the aforementioned 'u' in harbour or armour. Or placing an 'r' before an 'e' in centre or theatre. Or even phrasing.....saying "I'm right tired" instead of "I'm really tired". Using the word "well" for "very".

Simply saying British English makes more sense because you're native to it, is a little presumptuous, I think.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

There are many things that don't make any sense at all in "British English".

I'd say the biggest one is pronounciations. Have "shire" sound like "shur" is interesting to anyone who is learning English and finds out that an "e" at the end of a word means the vowel will be long.

But this is how language works. It is a living thing and adapts to the region, education and isolation of people. To say it must all be the same shows a lack of understanding of language.

Even "errors" in grammar and syntax have been explained to culture and ethnology. So I suppose it helps to remember language varies a great deal because it's meant to.

[Dragonfish]

The function of some morphemes (letters) changed drastically, such as 'Y', which was pronounced as /th/. (Interesting note: when you see 'Ye Olde Booke Shoppe', 'Ye' is not pronounced as /yi/, but as /th/).

There are a couple of mistakes that for some reason I feel the need to correct.

First, a morpheme is not simply a "letter." It's a unit of meaning or grammatical function that cannot be divided into smaller grammatical parts. For example, the word "parts" used at the end of the last sentence contains two morphemes: the whole word "part" and the plurality marker "-s." In your example, the letter "y" is not a morpheme. It's just a letter. Perhaps you meant to say "phoneme"?

While we're on the subject, it was never the case that "y" was pronounced like "th," at least not universally so. It was pronounced basically the same way as today. It was certainly true that the "y" in the definite article "ye" was pronounced the way you say, but that was simply because the original letter (called "thorn") used to represent the "th" sound did not exist on typewriters of the time, as they were manufactured in countries outside of England. As a result, English writers were forced to substitute the letter "y" due to its vague resemblance to "thorn" when the latter was written in a stylized way, and over time the "y" simply replaced "thorn" altogether. But again, this didn't reflect some original "y" pronunciation that fell into disuse, nor did it affect the letter's pronunciation in words where "y" did not replace thorn. So while the "ye" in "Ye Olde Booke Shoppe" was certainly pronounced like "the," the "ye" in "o ye of little faith" was still pronounced like /yi/, as they were two different words with two different meanings, functions, and origins.

This has been my been my small attempt to prevent the further "bastardization" of English. And yeah, I used a "z" instead of an "s." But the different z/s spellings both originated in England anyway, so there.

[GCabot]

I don't think GRRM mentions potatoes. Plenty of mashed neeps, but no potatoes. But I was wrong about the moose and peppers so...

There's no cure for being a Joffrey.

Pumpkins are also mentioned. The following passage (among others) is why I generally believe GRRM is referring to maize when he talks about corn, since otherwise it would be a redundant list.

"Wheat and corn and barley grew high in its fields, and even in Highgarden the pumpkins were no larger nor the fruit any sweeter than here."

AGoT p. 303 (Talking about the Vale of Arryn)

I understand that much of Westeros is modeled after the British Isles, but I'm unclear why there's been sentiment that New World foods can't exist in Westeros. This is a fantasy world that doesn't need to hew precisely to the real world.

[GCabot]

If you think improper usage of the correct version of "their", "there', and "they're" or "your" and "you're" is unique to America, then I've got some prime beachfront real estate on the Moon that I'd like to sell you.

This.

There's a difference between Americanisms (linguistic changes in the respective English languages since the Revolution) and merely ragging on Americans for poor grammar. Sure, there are plenty of Americans with pitiful grammar, but having spent a lot of time in the UK, the percentage of semi-illiterate individuals there is just as high, if not greater than in the US. You can go anywhere in the world and find a relatively uneducated portion of the populace to harp on. I feel like it's merely greater exposure of Americans through television and films that creates any such perception of US grammatical deficiency.

[Horza]

I'd say the biggest one is pronounciations. Have "shire" sound like "shur" is interesting to anyone who is learning English and finds out that an "e" at the end of a word means the vowel will be long.

That's only when 'shire' is a suffix. Frodo doesn't live in The Shur.

[The Boar of Gore]

"It makes no odds" to what?

Even if research proves that American English is, by some sort of objective linguistic criteria, an offshoot of British English, that doesn't make AE any less valid. If it were to be proven that English originated as a bastard dialect of Frisian that would be historically interesting, but would it mean that English is 'wrong'?

People in the UK naturally feel that AE is incorrect, and people in America sometimes feel the same way about BE. It's just a matter of perspective.

And yes, in addition to contributing an entirely new lexicon from electronic language, the structure and spellings of some words have been altered according to their use in texting, and other electronic mediums of language. 'Web-log'>'Weblog'>'Blog', for example. Or are you adamantly suggesting that texting, IM, and other internet-based language will not alter standardised spellings found in the dictionary? The term 'thru' was conceived due to the convenience of its altered spelling (it saved restaurants, cinemas etc. money by not having to pay for the extra letters, a predecessor of 'txtin 2 sve c/ters'). In either case, you're misinformed.

I'm saying these new words and spellings are additions to the language rather than replacements for existing words. 'Blog' is a new word for a new thing. 'Thru' is recognized as an informal variant used for convenience in certain contexts. It has not replaced 'through' as the standard spelling in the dictionary, nor will it - unless we all become illiterate.

[The Boar of Gore]

It was certainly true that the "y" in the definite article "ye" was pronounced the way you say, but that was simply because the original letter (called "thorn") used to represent the "th" sound did not exist on typewriters of the time, as they were manufactured in countries outside of England. As a result, English writers were forced to substitute the letter "y" due to its vague resemblance to "thorn" when the latter was written in a stylized way, and over time the "y" simply replaced "thorn" altogether. But again, this didn't reflect some original "y" pronunciation that fell into disuse, nor did it affect the letter's pronunciation in words where "y" did not replace thorn. So while the "ye" in "Ye Olde Booke Shoppe" was certainly pronounced like "the," the "ye" in "o ye of little faith" was still pronounced like /yi/, as they were two different words with two different meanings, functions, and origins.

Didn't they also use 'th' as a substitute for both 'thorn' and 'eth' at the same time as using 'y'? Or did 'th' come later?

Pumpkins are also mentioned. The following passage (among others) is why I generally believe GRRM is referring to maize when he talks about corn, since otherwise it would be a redundant list.

"Wheat and corn and barley grew high in its fields, and even in Highgarden the pumpkins were no larger nor the fruit any sweeter than here."

AGoT p. 303 (Talking about the Vale of Arryn)

I understand that much of Westeros is modeled after the British Isles, but I'm unclear why there's been sentiment that New World foods can't exist in Westeros. This is a fantasy world that doesn't need to hew precisely to the real world.

Ok, I guess corn can be maize in Westeros after all. It's just that an ear of corn always meant wheat or barley to me...