[BOOK SPOILERS] Theory: Ramsay hunts a Stark in Season 4?

[Frey-A-La-Mode]

Of course, in saying all of this, I'm sure they'll just announce that they've cast Jeyne Poole as soon as I post this and all of this will mean nothing.

You know, I have to say yours is the best theory that I've heard concerning Yara, Theon, Ramsay, Jeyne Poole, and S4. I think it's more with D&D's style, why introduce a new character (like Edric Storm) when you've got an existing character (like Gendry) who will serve their plotline?

It's looking like TWOW will come out before Season 6 (I hope...) and it also looks like most of the AFFC/ADWD stuff will happen in the latter half of Season 4 (for some plotlines, like Bran et al, Jaime, Brienne, etc) and Season 5 (for everyone else). Then they have seasons 6 7 and 8 to cover TWOW and ADOS. It is, however, highly unlikely that both TWOW and ADOS will come out before Seasons 7 and 8. I wonder how they'll deal with it? Maybe take 18 month breaks in between Seasons, like they did with The Sopranos? Who knows?

[Khal-a-bunga]

I can't see how they avoid this confrontation in S4 so my theory is that instead of this being looked at as "filler" material, that Yara going to the Dreadfort will be significant to the future story.

I could definitely see things playing out this way, and would welcome the change, to be honest. The whole plot with Jeyne Poole being passed off as Arya doesn't seem like it will serve much of a purpose, ultimately, so it's an easy cut. I think that this could definitely be similar to how things play out next season.

It is, however, highly unlikely that both TWOW and ADOS will come out before Seasons 7 and 8. I wonder how they'll deal with it? Maybe take 18 month breaks in between Seasons, like they did with The Sopranos? Who knows?

I don't think the show will be taking any breaks, to be honest. The Sopranos was a totally different beast, in terms of the logistics of the production. Game of Thrones simply has too many moving parts to break with their current production cycle, I think. The only instance I can think of where there could possibly be a delay between seasons would be with the final season. And even then, I think the production would continue on as planned, and the episodes would just be held until... Well, in a very optimistic scenario, they'd be held back for a short period of time, until A Dream of Spring is released (this is assuming that the book is reasonably close to being finished and released). More likely is that the show will continue on, with or without the release of the final book.

Oh, and I agree that Ian McNiece needs to find his way into the series. Something tells me that the Manderly's aren't going to make the cut, so I'd like to see him play the role of Mace Tyrell if that's the case. Though I agree that he'd make for a perfect Wyman Manderly.

[Frey-A-La-Mode]

Oh, and I agree that Ian McNiece needs to find his way into the series. Something tells me that the Manderly's aren't going to make the cut, so I'd like to see him play the role of Mace Tyrell if that's the case. Though I agree that he'd make for a perfect Wyman Manderly.

Allow me to offer you a glimmer of hope on that front, Ser! If you look at the guest cast for The Rains of Castamere episode, Wendel Manderly is listed,

and consequently killed during the bloodshed

and you can see a fat bearded dude with a mermaid/trident pin behind Robb during the wedding procession. This character has never been mentioned on the show before, nor has House Manderly/White Harbour, and to me, the only conceivable reason for doing so would be to introduce Wyman Manderly later. Here's hoping!

Oh man, McNeice would be just as awesome as Mace Tyrell!

[Pinkie Baelish]

Oh, and I agree that Ian McNiece needs to find his way into the series. Something tells me that the Manderly's aren't going to make the cut, so I'd like to see him play the role of Mace Tyrell if that's the case. Though I agree that he'd make for a perfect Wyman Manderly.

:agree: I've been watching Rome recently, and since my first pick(Richard Griffiths) is sadly no longer with us, I think Ian McNeice would be the next best choice for Wyman.

And I like the idea of Theon helping Rickon escape, and paying for it. However if this happens, the loss of fingers and toes needs to be offscreen. In an ideal world, I would exclude him next season: that way, his reveal as Reek in the Dreadfort would be more effective, especially if they CGI out some of his toes and fingers in close-ups of his hands and feet.

[Frey-A-La-Mode]

I've been watching Rome recently, and since my first pick(Richard Griffiths) is sadly no longer with us, I think Ian McNeice would be the next best choice for Wyman.

I was thinking of watching Rome, I've never seen it I know it ended earlier than anticipated, due to budgetary reasons. Can you answer without spoiling, does Season 2 end on a cliffhanger, or does the series get sort of wrapped up?

[Pinkie Baelish]

I was thinking of watching Rome, I've never seen it I know it ended earlier than anticipated, due to budgetary reasons. Can you answer without spoiling, does Season 2 end on a cliffhanger, or does the series get sort of wrapped up?

I'm still halfway through season 2, but from what I can gather, it does have a proper ending, but season 2 is a bit rushed, and has numerous time jumps since they essentially had to wrap up a five or seven season show in two seasons. Both seasons deal with different stages of Roman history and the fall of the Republic. Season 1, on the other hand, is paced just fine, and is really good, with a fantastic ending. Oh, and Ian McNeice is the local newsreader on the show, and has some very entertaining gestures when he speaks.

[Frey-A-La-Mode]

Oh, and Ian McNeice is the local newsreader on the show, and has some very entertaining gestures when he speaks.

Sold! It's in the tubes now. Have you ever watched the 1975 BBC mini-series I, Claudius? There are a handful of actors you'll probably recognize, like a young Patrick Stewart, and of course Brian Blessed, Sian Phillips, and Derek Jacobi in the titular role. It's about 13 episodes. The production value is kind of low budget, but the acting is brilliant. Great court intrigue. To me, Livia (Sian Phillips, who plays Augustus' wife) sets the benchmark for evil and underhanded treachery.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Sold! It's in the tubes now. Have you ever watched the 1975 BBC mini-series I, Claudius? There are a handful of actors you'll probably recognize, like a young Patrick Stewart, and of course Brian Blessed, Sian Phillips, and Derek Jacobi in the titular role. It's about 13 episodes. The production value is kind of low budget, but the acting is brilliant. Great court intrigue. To me, Livia (Sian Phillips, who plays Augustus' wife) sets the benchmark for evil and underhanded treachery.

I haven't, but your description sounds very promising. I'll have to check it out, thanks :)

[Frey-A-La-Mode]

I haven't, but your description sounds very promising. I'll have to check it out, thanks :)

My pleasure. If you can't find a better version, the whole thing is up on youtube here. Note that the first episode is a double, and thus there are 12 of about 45-50 minutes each. Elsewise some versions have 13 episodes.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9PA_DB9K04&list=PLB9E6AE90A6D17AC3

[Khal-a-bunga]

@ Frey-A-La-Mode

If you're a fan of Ian McNiece (or good television, in general), then you owe it to yourself to watch Rome. It didn't get a chance to tell the complete story that was originally envisioned, but they did get a chance to tell the whole story, if that makes sense. Basically they just hit the major elements, but don't let that deter you - it's still an amazing show. And McNiece is in just about every episode, IIRC.

[protar]

While I do think that Ramsay will be hunting Rickon, I don't think this will take up any more than a couple of episodes, ending with Osha deciding to leave the north entirely and make for Skaagos. The rest of Theon's arc can be the beginnings of his ADWD material, ending with Ramsay's marriage to Jeyne (who I believe will be kept in in some form).

Meanwhile we can get Davos going to Whiteharbour, which will almost certainly be in imo. Wendel Manderly was cast and killed at the RW and Davos mentions that Stannis will need him to treat with the northern lords. So I think by the end of the season Manderly will hatch his plot to send Davos after Rickon.

While I would prefer the Kingsmoot be in, it seems like it will be cut. Asha seems in a perfect position to be captured by Stannis on his way to the Wall after coming too late to the Dreadfort. Then she'll probably take the role of the spearwives in Mance's infiltration of Winterfell, allowing her to reunite with Theon a bit earlier.

[Dragonstoned]

While I would prefer the Kingsmoot be in, it seems like it will be cut. Asha seems in a perfect position to be captured by Stannis on his way to the Wall after coming too late to the Dreadfort. Then she'll probably take the role of the spearwives in Mance's infiltration of Winterfell, allowing her to reunite with Theon a bit earlier.

Really? I thought the Kingsmoot was a scene made for television. I could only see it cut if they really don't want to cast the brothers yet, or one or two of them not at all. Surely Asha leaving for the Dreadfort was just their way of getting her off the Iron Isles so she can hear about Balon's death and come back to find Euron already there? It's the same as having her away at Deepwood only they already have the Pyke set.

If Ramsay is hunting Rickon then we don't need any Wex type character, even on the show Ramsay's not exactly subtle so news will get round that Rickon is alive.

[protar]

Really? I thought the Kingsmoot was a scene made for television. I could only see it cut if they really don't want to cast the brothers yet, or one or two of them not at all. Surely Asha leaving for the Dreadfort was just their way of getting her off the Iron Isles so she can hear about Balon's death and come back to find Euron already there? It's the same as having her away at Deepwood only they already have the Pyke set.

If Ramsay is hunting Rickon then we don't need any Wex type character, even on the show Ramsay's not exactly subtle so news will get round that Rickon is alive.

I am holding out hope that it's exactly as you say and it was just a way to get Asha off the Isles. But then, why can't she be on the isles at the time of Balon's death? And if she can't then why have that scene? just have her in the north to start with. So it seems that the KM is cut.

It is possible that the KM will go forwards simply without Asha present, however it seems odd to have that event entirely based on characters we have no prior attachment to and such a scenario would make no sense with their comments about the cast and the world not growing much larger.

I have no doubt that Euron and at least one of Victarion and Aeron will be in though. They can be offscreen in S4 with Euron declaring himself king and conquering the coast of the Reach off-screen. Then in S5 we get the whole plot with Dany. I'm interested to see whether it's Victarion or Aeron who will be cut. Aeron has done the least so far, but has his own POV in TWOW separate from everyone else suggesting he will play some role that can't be fulfilled by anyone else. Victarion has an important role to play however it may be that Euron will turn out to have been following Vic all along disguised as Moqorro or the Dusky Woman. If that's the case, they may do away with this twist and just have Euron go after Dany on his own.

[Frey-A-La-Mode]

@ Frey-A-La-Mode

If you're a fan of Ian McNiece (or good television, in general), then you owe it to yourself to watch Rome. It didn't get a chance to tell the complete story that was originally envisioned, but they did get a chance to tell the whole story, if that makes sense. Basically they just hit the major elements, but don't let that deter you - it's still an amazing show. And McNiece is in just about every episode, IIRC.

haha I just finished the first episode, thanks. I didn't realize that Tobias Menzies was in it too, although I knew Ciaran Hinds was Caesar.

[Lord Jakkor]

Why is everyone so convinced that Yara won't return after Balon's death?

A Feast for Crows

Asha informs Rodrik Harlaw she had searched for Theon at Winterfell after it was sacked but was unable to identify him amongst the bodies.^[3] She returns to the isles after Balon's death to claim the Seastone Chair.^[3][5] With the proposal to make peace with the mainland in exchange for land, she achieves a surprising amount of support at the kingsmoot, but the crowd ultimately favors Euron. She departs again shortly thereafter, her plans unclear.^[6]

Seems to indicate in the books she also went searching for Theon, like in the show, but found nothing and returned to the Iron Isles upon her father's death. I could see it playing out the same. She scouts out the Dreadfort and learns Theon is no longer there. She plans to look around, but gets word of her father's death and her Uncle's return.

It would be a crying shame not to include the Kingsmoot, and they could even push it to Season 5 if they wanted to since it's in Feast. D&D have to know that scene would make great television, and unless GRRM has told them Euron and Victarion are of little consequence in the next books I feel they'll have to cast at least one of them, if not both. Euron doesn't even need to be a regular cast member, more like a Walder Frey.

[protar]

Why is everyone so convinced that Yara won't return after Balon's death?

A Feast for Crows

Asha informs Rodrik Harlaw she had searched for Theon at Winterfell after it was sacked but was unable to identify him amongst the bodies.^[3] She returns to the isles after Balon's death to claim the Seastone Chair.^[3][5] With the proposal to make peace with the mainland in exchange for land, she achieves a surprising amount of support at the kingsmoot, but the crowd ultimately favors Euron. She departs again shortly thereafter, her plans unclear.^[6]

Seems to indicate in the books she also went searching for Theon, like in the show, but found nothing and returned to the Iron Isles upon her father's death. I could see it playing out the same. She scouts out the Dreadfort and learns Theon is no longer there. She plans to look around, but gets word of her father's death and her Uncle's return.

It would be a crying shame not to include the Kingsmoot, and they could even push it to Season 5 if they wanted to since it's in Feast. D&D have to know that scene would make great television, and unless GRRM has told them Euron and Victarion are of little consequence in the next books I feel they'll have to cast at least one of them, if not both. Euron doesn't even need to be a regular cast member, more like a Walder Frey.

But in the books Asha was never back at the Iron Isles. She was in the north the whole time until the KM. It seems a little bit convoluted for her to be in the north in S2, make her way back to the Isles for S3 and then in S4 go to the north, go to the isles and then flee back to the north after the KM. As much as I want the KM to be in, it doesn't look like it.

[King Tommen]

But in the books Asha was never back at the Iron Isles. She was in the north the whole time until the KM. It seems a little bit convoluted for her to be in the north in S2, make her way back to the Isles for S3 and then in S4 go to the north, go to the isles and then flee back to the north after the KM. As much as I want the KM to be in, it doesn't look like it.

Yeah, they made a huge deal about her going on a mission specifically to the Dreadfort. She's taking the best soldiers they've got and is determined to bring him back. You don't introduce that development on the show without having her follow through on it.

And it makes no sense for her to be by her father's side and then have her sent away on a big mission only to almost immediately turn around and return when Balon dies a couple episodes later. It's not a requirement for her to be away from the Iron Islands when Balon dies so the fact that she takes off is a strong indication that she won't be around for the aftermath of Balon's imminent death.

[AegonSnow]

I really hope Purple Wedding isn't s4 e9 ala Red wedding.

[Caelestis]

I am holding out hope that it's exactly as you say and it was just a way to get Asha off the Isles. But then, why can't she be on the isles at the time of Balon's death? And if she can't then why have that scene? just have her in the north to start with. So it seems that the KM is cut.

It is possible that the KM will go forwards simply without Asha present, however it seems odd to have that event entirely based on characters we have no prior attachment to and such a scenario would make no sense with their comments about the cast and the world not growing much larger.

Although I really like King Tommen's ideas for the Theon/Yara-storyline in Season 4, there may be one tiny sliver of hope that the Kingsmoot is still in, eventhough they announced the whole Yara-rescuing-Theon-plot: in my opinion, I think it is rather crucial that Yara/Asha is NOT on the Iron Islands when Balon dies, as it allows Euron the opportunity to seize the Seastone Chair practically unopposed. Think about it: if Yara/Asha had been present when Balon died, she could've immediately taken steps to ensure the rule of the Iron Islands would pass to her. Even if she's a woman, she is still highly respected among the Ironborn and, with her being Balon's daughter, many would've been prepared to follow her instead, as evidenced by the large amount of support she received at the Kingsmoot... Unlike Euron. At best, he seems to be disliked by the Ironborn at large; at worst, he's seen as a strange, mad, devious, pirate-wizard dabbling in black magic and too vicious even by Ironborn standards (not to mention godless ;) ). It's only until AFTER the Kingsmoot that Euron really gains the Ironborn's approval (for the most part) by announcing his true ambitions and showing off with the dragonhorn.

Taking this into consideration, Euron getting to the Seastone Chair first and openly proclaiming himself the new King of the Iron Islands is a pretty significant plot point, which means that it would have to be clear to the audience that Yara wasn't present to do anything beforehand to stop him - hence leading to the Kingsmoot, as the succession is in dispute. It being made clear that she was at sea when Balon died would thus be necessary to show explicitly. On the other hand, after a whole season without them, the TV audience might need a reminder that Balon and Yara still exist in the first place: the two of them reacting to the news of Theon through Ramsay was the perfect way to bring them back on the show.

The writers have the opportunity to really surprise the audience with Balon's sudden death and Yara forcibly deviating from her intended course. Once the Kingsmoot is over at the end of Season 4, Yara can still head off to the North to rescue Theon, with the added urgency of bringing him back in an attempt to depose Euron.

It's a long-shot (and like I said, it won't surprise me if they just have Yara get captured by Ramsay as well), but somehow, I feel like the Ironborn plot is not going to be cut completely by D&D... At the very least, I'm pretty confident Euron will be in. His role just seems potentially too significant for the future of the story.

[Werthead]

The 'Yara goes to rescue Theon' storyline is clearly her arc for Season 5. It would be dumb to have her turn round, rush back to the Kingsmoot, go "Hey, I need Theon," when she was already doing that and then take off again.

There are two ways they can address the Kingsmoot:

1) Balon dies, but Yara only hears about it and the called Kingsmoot some time late in Season 4, when her storyline is wrapping up for the season. She returns to the Iron Islands for the Kingsmoot at the start of Season 5 and then takes off to meet Theon at Winterfell. I consider this less likely because if Season 5 is going to be the bulk of the AFFC/ADWD storylines, then the Kingsmoot needs to be much earlier (in the books, though it is depicted during AFFC, chronologically it takes place during the latter half of ASoS) than the start of Season 5.

2) Balon dies, Euron immediately seizes the throne and Yara only hears about it as a fait accompli. She decides the only way to rescue the situation is to carry on, rescue Theon and have him claim the throne. The Kingsmoot either doesn't happen at all, or happens off-screen with no time for Yara to attend.

In both cases, it delays the casting of Euron and Victarion to Season 5 (surely they'd have been mentioned as characters for Season 4 if they were in the mix, rather than Ellaria and Styr who are pretty minor?), which saves money, and more importantly it gets the expensive Kingsmoot scene (location filming, tons of extras) out of the way so they can spend money on the two big set-pieces for the season instead, likely to be the Battle of the Wall and maybe Margaery and Joffrey's wedding.

I was thinking of watching Rome, I've never seen it I know it ended earlier than anticipated, due to budgetary reasons. Can you answer without spoiling, does Season 2 end on a cliffhanger, or does the series get sort of wrapped up?

Rome gets a definitive arc and ending, though there is one character whose fate is left ambiguous (this was supposed to be addressed by a spin-off film which has never materialised). Beyond that, everything is wrapped up. Season 2 feels a little rushed and the storylines are a bit more disconnected from one another, but overall it's still a very strong season. Season 1 is better-paced but Season 2 is arguably more dramatically satisfying and is certainly completely dominated by Purefoy, who is on awesome form throughout.

Have you ever watched the 1975 BBC mini-series I, Claudius?

Oddly enough, I, Claudius is being remade by HBO with some of the same people who did Rome (though not the same producers) involved.