[BOOK SPOILERS] Theory: Ramsay hunts a Stark in Season 4?

[Khal-a-bunga]

I seriously doubt the vast majority of the casual audience have any idea who Elia Martell was. They didn't even know who Roose Bolton was pre-RW because the show saw fit to give us pointless Tywin/Arya scenes instead of setting up the Boltons.

Says who? People who aren't paying attention? Roose was "set up" just fine. Maybe you just wanted his treachery to be telegraphed, instead? Furthermore, what does it matter if the vast majority of the audience doesn't know Elia Martell right now? They'll know more when it's relevant to the current story.

[Joyful Union]

Has Elia Martell even been brought up? I know the murder of Rhaenys and Aegon was.

I'm certain this will be introduced next season if not.

[YTDN]

Says who? People who aren't paying attention? Roose was "set up" just fine. Maybe you just wanted his treachery to be telegraphed, instead? Furthermore, what does it matter if the vast majority of the audience doesn't know Elia Martell right now? They'll know more when it's relevant to the current story.

I think that's the point. Characters like Jeyne Poole don't need to be introduced until they need to be introduced.

[The_Iron_Captain]

Says who? People who aren't paying attention? Roose was "set up" just fine. Maybe you just wanted his treachery to be telegraphed, instead? Furthermore, what does it matter if the vast majority of the audience doesn't know Elia Martell right now? They'll know more when it's relevant to the current story.

This.

Most of the set up has been done very well. Roose was actually set up perfectly IMO. It wasn't telegraphed but you still had that sense that this guy may be up to something. In regard to Elia, I am sure they will go in depth about it very early in Season 4.

[King Tommen]

I think that's the point. Characters like Jeyne Poole don't need to be introduced until they need to be introduced.

Except for the fact for her existence to make sense, she would have had to be shown in scenes that the show has already depicted. That's the difference:

To compare it to the Elia Martel issue: this would be like if the show had a flashback to Tywin taking King's Landing during Robert's Rebellion and they showed Tywin with the Mountain and Amory Lorch entering the city and meeting up with Jaime and Ned in the Throne room with no mention of Elia or Aerys' children. Then, in Season 4, Oberyn came to King's Landing and said he was pissed about Elia being raped and murdered by the Mountain and her kids being brutally murdered as well. The audience would be like: "Well, while we saw the taking of King's Landing, shouldn't you have shown us that pretty fucking important development at that time? Is this a last minute decision by the writers to shoehorn this part in? I think a rape and murder of a royal princess and her babies would be worth showing or mentioning, no?"

Or to put in the context of the Reeds: it would be like if Bran/Rickon/Osha/Hodor had been heading to the Wall at the start of S3 and the Reeds suddenly popped up and said "So where are we off to?" and Bran would ask who the hell they were and Jojen would say "Don't you remember? We were at Winterfell with you back before Theon showed up. We were hanging out with before everything went down and then we hid and followed you out afterwards without anyone seeing." The audience would feel cheated because there had been no mention or scenes with these characters before to confirm this sequence of events. It's a cheat and the audience sees it right away.

[YTDN]

Except for the fact for her existence to make sense, she would have had to be shown in scenes that the show has already depicted. That's the difference:

To compare it to the Elia Martel issue: this would be like if the show had a flashback to Tywin taking King's Landing during Robert's Rebellion and they showed Tywin with the Mountain and Amory Lorch entering the city and meeting up with Jaime and Ned in the Throne room with no mention of Elia or Aerys' children. Then, in Season 4, Oberyn came to King's Landing and said he was pissed about Elia being raped and murdered by the Mountain and her kids being brutally murdered as well. The audience would be like: "Well, while we saw the taking of King's Landing, shouldn't you have shown us that pretty fucking important development at that time? Is this a last minute decision by the writers to shoehorn this part in? I think a rape and murder of a royal princess and her babies would be worth showing or mentioning, no?"

The difference is that Jeyne Poole is a nobody until the moment she becomes "Arya", while Elia Martell is a princess. You can retcon in the former quite easily, but not the latter.

[James Sucellus]

I think it's pretty dumb to think that the general audience will switch off in disgust if a girl is introduced that used to be friends with Sansa.

[King Tommen]

I think it's pretty dumb to think that the general audience will switch off in disgust if a girl is introduced that used to be friends with Sansa.

Yes, because that's what I'm saying: that people will switch off their televisions.

I'm saying they'll think it's dumb and a cheat and won't be enamored with the development. You know how well "people in disguises" go in television and movies? Here's hint, not nearly as well as in books, where you don't have the crutch of having to show the audience the difference in appearance.

[YTDN]

Yes, because that's what I'm saying: that people will switch off their televisions.

I'm saying they'll think it's dumb and a cheat and won't be enamored with the development. You know how well "people in disguises" go in television and movies? Here's hint, not nearly as well as in books, where you don't have the crutch of having to show the audience the difference in appearance.

If people didn't switch off after the Red Wedding, they're not going to switch off at a plot development that requires a tiny bit of suspension of disbelief. Seriously, drop the hyperbole.

Also, the thing about the fArya ruse in the books is the audience knows she's a fake, so there's none of the problems that lets say, Arstan Whitebeard did. The viewers will know Jeyne isn't Arya, and the writers simply have to make it clear that all the people who believe Jeyne is Arya have never seen the real Arya before, or at least long ago enough for it not to matter.

[PhoenixFlame]

I could see them briefly trolling the audience with "you'll be marrying Arya Stark, she's en route now" just until she shows up or someone is like "pfft, obviously a fake."

Jeyne's not a character you get really attached to, but she becomes a reason for Theon to reclaim himself and start atoning.

[King Tommen]

If people didn't switch off after the Red Wedding, they're not going to switch off at a plot development that requires a tiny bit of suspension of disbelief. Seriously, drop the hyperbole.

Did my statement really require the sarcasm emoticon with it? I thought it was clear enough that I was making fun of the previous poster's assertion.

[YTDN]

Did my statement really require the sarcasm emoticon with it? I thought it was clear enough that I was making fun of the previous poster's assertion.

Sorry, there's so much hyperbole on this forum that my sarcasm detector's broken :dunce:

[Ser Luke.]

Says who? People who aren't paying attention? Roose was "set up" just fine. Maybe you just wanted his treachery to be telegraphed, instead? Furthermore, what does it matter if the vast majority of the audience doesn't know Elia Martell right now? They'll know more when it's relevant to the current story.

Exactly. The part about viewers not knowing who Roose was before the RW is BS. I know five Unsullied viewers, and ALL of them recognized Roose since Season 2. All we need to set up Elia is to have her brought up in the first Tyrion-Oberyn talk, and then during the PW have Oberyn drop some lines to Tywin regarding Elia's murder.

[go joff go]

You're right, but it could work, hear me out.

As of now, Wardenship of the North hasn't passed permanently to House Bolton in the eyes of the crown, but only temporarily until the son of Tyrion and Sansa comes of age. To keep the actor playing Roose Bolton occupied next season, they could have him (and possibly also Walder Frey) travel south to attend the royal marriage. (That would provide some mighty interesting meetings, particularly with Sansa) After Joffrey's death the original plan is obviously moot, with Sansa missing and Tyrion about to lose his head. Roose Bolton himself could crack the idea of intermarrying Bolton and Stark through fake-Arya. They could use some random northern girl, but Jeyne Poole would work too. People didn't question the sudden appearance of the Tullys in S3 (to my knowledge), why should they question this? Besides, Jeyne Poole was mentioned once in season 1, when Sansa spoke to the septa in KL.

I think it could happen this way too. The point isn't really to make us think fake arya is real or even for us , or Theon for that matter, to care about the person playing fake arya , so I don't understand King Tommens argument. The point is to set up a scenario where Jon will consider attacking winterfell. Also if you do introduce a Jeyne character early in this season its not going to be so emotionless when the culmination of her storyline happens at the end of season 5.

[Pinkie Baelish]

The slow burn of Bolton's treachery was actually done really well. My Unsullied friend was rewatching season 2 after season 3, and told me how he noticed how Roose always seemed present and kept suggesting that Robb do things differently. People may not know his first name, but they know that he's Lord Bolton. I think his scenes with Jaime established him well on screen(although the dinner scene really should have been longer and done more to subtly underline his motivations). I definitely think people will notice the build up to his reveal as a traitor upon subsequent rewatches.

I second the notion that Roose should be at the PW, solely because of the potential of getting a Roose/Tywin scene where they decide to legitimize Ramsay and marry him off to fArya.

[Weeping Sore]

The slow burn of Bolton's treachery was actually done really well. My Unsullied friend was rewatching season 2 after season 3, and told me how he noticed how Roose always seemed present and kept suggesting that Robb do things differently. People may not know his first name, but they know that he's Lord Bolton. I think his scenes with Jaime established him well on screen(although the dinner scene really should have been longer and done more to subtly underline his motivations). I definitely think people will notice the build up to his reveal as a traitor upon subsequent rewatches.

I second the notion that Roose should be at the PW, solely because of the potential of getting a Roose/Tywin scene where they decide to legitimize Ramsay and marry him off to fArya.

I quite like this suggestion- do you think they might hold a hope of finding the real Arya at first, then later make do with a pretender? It might give Arya's S4 a little frisson to have her pursued, not forgotten. More of a motivation to flee to Braavos by season's end, too.

ETA: I was thinking the same thing- that the Roose thread will reward the unsullied more on a re-watch.

[Pinkie Baelish]

I'm thinking of how Littlefinger plays into the fake Arya storyline. Because in the books, it's his idea to use Jeyne Poole and pass her off as Arya, and given that he's about to reveal Sansa at her wedding, he must already be aware that Jeyne is married to Ramsay and is an impostor. But if show LF plays no part in influencing Tywin's decision to have a fake Arya, how would he possibly know that fArya is fake unless he sees her for himself? The show seems to suggest that he recognized Arya at Harrenhal. If this is true, would it be too much of a stretch to assume that when he hears of Arya marrying Ramsay, he assumes that Tywin must have recognized the real Arya as well and married her off to Ramsay?

[King Tommen]

I think Roose will most likely be at the PW otherwise they'd have a hard time incorporating him into Season 4 at all. It wouldn't be smart to sideline a character who you've just developed into one of the major villains so quickly after his reveal.

[Hiram McDrogon]

I'm thinking of how Littlefinger plays into the fake Arya storyline ... The show seems to suggest that he recognized Arya at Harrenhal.

I keep wondering if that "Did he recognize her or not moment?" is going to come back into the show: perhaps in Season 4, Littlefinger's spy, who has been following Arya since Harrenhal, suddenly appears. I really hope not, but maybe it could work in providing that bit of danger that prompts her to flee Westeros.

In the books, I kind of assumed that everyone with much power in the King's Landing area knew that "Arya" was a fake, but it didn't matter much: all they needed was a legalistic cover. The completely-forgotten-to-KL Jon Snow may or may not throw a massive wrench in that plan.

And on the show not doing enough with Roose Bolton prior to the Red Wedding: this criticism really surprises me. When I read the RW, I didn't even realize it was Roose who finally killed Robb - sure, when you re-read, the Roose stuff is very cool, but on the first read, I think most people don't register much beyond leeches. I think the show mimicked that effect quite well: the "Oops, I should have paid a lot more attention to this guy", a feeling that I suppose Robb and Catelyn briefly shared as well!

[The_Iron_Captain]

I think Roose will most likely be at the PW otherwise they'd have a hard time incorporating him into Season 4 at all. It wouldn't be smart to sideline a character who you've just developed into one of the major villains so quickly after his reveal.

I have no doubt that they will incorporate Roose into Season 4 in one way or another. I could see him making his way North a bit earlier than he does in the books. The idea of having him go to King's Landing for a bit is a pretty good idea. Maybe after the PW he can make his way North?