War between the Red Faith and the House of Black and White (also: where Jaqen fits and some possible implications for Arya)

[The Sleeper]

The FM's theology is a peculiar one. They seem to revere all deities as an aspect of their own. It is easy to see that some of the faithfull of these deities would consider this an unwanted appropriation of their religious symbols. Still, they appear to co-exist peacefully in Braavos with a multitude of other religions, undoubtedly aided by the tolerant attitude that prevails in the city (and the fact that they are scary MF's).

There is one religion that I think they are bound to come in conflict with. Believers in R'hlor despise death and darkness and view the former as unequivocally evil. With their propensity to view all other deities as demons or minions of the Great Other it stands to reason that they might view Him oif Many Faces as the Great Other himself and the fact that the FM consider R'hlor an aspect of their god as sacriledge.

Undeniably the red faith is on the rise, which was probably promted by the fact that the birth of Dany's dragons magnified their magical abilities, something they probably see as a sign from R'hlor. All over the ASoIaF the red priests are whipping the faithfull into a frenzy. There are two things that are important in this context. In Qohor they drove out the priests of the Black Goat. (I may be misremembering this). They are actively displacing other religions and the example is a deity whose statue is present in the House of Black and White.

Benerro in Volantis is preaching to the slaves that death itself will bend the knee. As we have seen, Thoros has been able to raise the dead when he perform the red last rites on Beric and while it is unknown if his ability is widesrpead among the red priests it seems to fit well with Benerro's promise. We have seen another religion have an initiation ceremony that consists of killing the iniitiate and reviving them: Aeron's drowned men. The drowned men are not of course undead, but if the red priests adopt a similar practise they could very well create an army of zombies.

The FM are faced on one hand with the growing aggression of the red priests and with something they most likely view as a sacriledge themselves: people being denied the gift of death that they consider sacred. What are they going to do about it? Another thing in which they differ with the red priests fundamentally is that they appear to espouse extreme fatalism. In that sense Jaqen may or not be a rogue, but I do believe he is on a mission to fight back. The FM esteem R'hlosr as well and may feel that the red priests are in the wrong deciding who lives and who dies in his name. Jaqen when saved by Arya is displaying an entirely different attitude than the red priests. He demands lives in the red god's name. When Arya makes him swear he swears even to him of fire. Does that signify reluctance?

Then there is him at the Ctiadel. In this context he would be there on religious rather than poilitcal agenda. The FM can't fight back against the red priests. It is doubtfull there are more than a couple dozen of them. Killing any single priest would be completely ineffectual. The Red Faith has gained far too much momentum to be affected by any single death, nevermind the fact that the victim can be revived again and again. This is what I believe Jaqen is doing at the Citadel, which is a vast resource of knowledge on magic. He is trying to find a way to counter the magic of the red priests. The tome "The Death of Dragons" may come into play if the FM have identified Dany's dragons as the source of the red priests' magic. I doubt it was his initial goal, though. After all, he has probably spent sufficient time at the Citadel to have located, copied or stolen the tome. Why is he still there then?

There is one important item that keeps Jaqen there. The glass candle. The FM can defend themselves individually and disappear in the wind. Their temple however is vulenrable to an attack that is bound to come sooner or later and they have no chance whatsoever of defending it. If they are to have any chance of operating as a group while in hiding they need some means of communication, which the glass candles provides. Why hasn't he retrieved it? He doesn't need to. All he needs is access to it and it performs its faction regardless of its location.

One of the implications for Arya is this. She may leave Braavos, not because of an assignment, or because she escapes the FM, but because the FM are forced to abandon Braavos altogeteher.

There more implications for Arya, the story in general and the FM's part in it, but the topic is spread wide as it is. I intend to revisit them, though, in this or anohter thread.

Thoughts, ideas, comments?

[Great Other]

Jaqen when saved by Arya is displaying an entirely different attitude than the red priests. He demands lives in the red god's name.

Not in the Books. In the Books, he demands lives in the Many-Faced God, if I remember correcly.

...The FM can't fight back against the red priests. It is doubtfull there are more than a couple dozen of them. Killing any single priest would be completely ineffectual...

Oh I doubt that. The faceless men are both skilled enough and with powerful connection to slaughter like pigs the Red Priests and hunt them like dogs down to the last one

One of the implications for Arya is this. She may leave Braavos, not because of an assignment, or because she escapes the FM, but because the FM are forced to abandon Braavos altogeteher.

There more implications for Arya, the story in general and the FM's part in it, but the topic is spread wide as it is. I intend to revisit them, though, in this or anohter thread.

There is also Melisandre's line to Arya in the series "we will meet again". In the books, they never meet, but that may be a foreshadowing of Melisandre's fate at the paws of a small cat of the canals of Braavos.

[The Sleeper]

Not in the Books. In the Books, he demands lives in the Many-Faced God, if I remember correcly.

“The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life. This girl took three that were his. This girl must give three in their

places."

Besides all gods are him of many faces.

Oh I doubt that. The faceless men are both skilled enough and with powerful connection to slaughter like pigs the Red Priests and hunt them like dogs down to the last one

They kill individuals. They can't stop an army of zealots.

[Rooseman]

Not in the Books. In the Books, he demands lives in the Many-Faced God, if I remember correcly.

"Swear it," Arya said. "Swear it by the gods."

"By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it." He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. "By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it."

[Hrafntýr]

Although we don't know how many individuals the Red Lot may have "deprived" of death, they certainly seem to provide substitutes often enough, if Mel's sacrifices and the killings by the BwB are any indication.

[The Sleeper]

Although we don't know how many individuals the Red Lot may have "deprived" of death, they certainly seem to provide substitutes often enough, if Mel's sacrifices and the killings by the BwB are any indication.

I don't see this as a numbers game, though Jaqen sure makes into one. And the red priests do sacrifice people. They also promise eternal life to their believers may have the means to deliver on mass. Some of them may already be undead to begin with. Even if the FM were ok with that, which I don't believe they are, the red priests are becoming increasingly militant and hostile to other religions and the FM are bound to be one of the first the red priests would come after and this is something the FM can anticipate.

[tormund's beard]

“The Red God has his due, sweet girl, and only death may pay for life. This girl took three that were his. This girl must give three in their

places."

Besides all gods are him of many faces.

They kill individuals. They can't stop an army of zealots.

how would you know someone is a FM ? can't kill what you can't see and im sure the red priests doesn't have gandalf-like powers shatering arrows mid flight and stuff.

[West Cumbrian Wildling]

I think you are along the right lines but have the wrong religion.

The followers of the Seven are amassing a huge army and have gained enough power to force a Lannister naked through the streets of KL.

It is only a matter of time until they prove all of cersei's kids were sired by Jamie and are therefore not legally able to rule.

At this point being fair and just they will seek out Stannis (probably in Winterfell) as he is rightfully next in line.

They will offer Stannis the Iron Throne if he renounces r'hllor, with the red bitch whispering in his ear he will refuse and BOOM massive religious war!!

The others will probably storm the wall simultaneously just to make things even more awesome

[The Sleeper]

how would you know someone is a FM ? can't kill what you can't see and im sure the red priests doesn't have gandalf-like powers shatering arrows mid flight and stuff.

Suppose an angry mob of R'hlor believers led by red priests show up at the HoB&W withe the intent to burn the place to the ground. How do you propose the FM would stop them?

[tormund's beard]

Suppose an angry mob of R'hlor believers led by red priests show up at the HoB&W withe the intent to burn the place to the ground. How do you propose the FM would stop them?

yeah sure they may kill some FM, destroy the HoB&W even. but we don't know how many (or few) FM operate at any given time, we do now that they have people spread trought the world, in my opinion if the house of black and white is destroyed it isn't a fatal blow to the fm.

Being who they are and the connections they have (iron bank and im sure a few others big kahunas) they would be at least equals if not more powerful than the redclowns.

[The Sleeper]

yeah sure they may kill some FM, destroy the HoB&W even. but we don't know how many (or few) FM operate at any given time, we do now that they have people spread trought the world, in my opinion if the house of black and white is destroyed it isn't a fatal blow to the fm.

Being who they are and the connections they have (iron bank and im sure a few others big kahunas) they would be at least equals if not more powerful than the redclowns.

They'd be forced to operate underground (ok, they already mostly do), but they'd have no place to meet and nowhere for people to find them. Which is why I proposed that Jaqen is sticking close to the glass candle to remedy the situation, should it arise.

The FM and the red priests have different kinds of power. The red priests would not be able to find the FM, but R'hlor has millions of followers practically everywhere, so the FM can't stop the red priests either. In order to fight back they need an edge which I think is what Jaqen is looking for in the Citadel.