Stannis' Skill as a commander of men.

[Barty]

Because his fleet can't transport his entire host.

All you would do is send the landing party to face the entire city garrison alone, and increase the time they need to wait for rienforcements by several hours. Instead of sending your entire host, you prefer to give the enemy breathing space of a couple of hours between waves of men.

Since the Mud gate is the weakest, followed by the King's gate, you now face the same bombardment, and for longer, while your forces have a longer time to wait for back up. How is this a good plan?

Because it's not important. The ability of the acting fleet commander is irrelevent.

The wildfire is a known threat, yet without dragons, people thought that it is alot harder to make, and not a real threat to the fleet. Notice that there is no other case of a naval battle where it plays a role. People know of it, but it's all tales, and if it ever saw use, it was in small amounts, irrelevent for the size of this fleet.

Could a scout see through the hulls of the enemy ships? No? Then all a scout would see is the enemy fleet in battle formation. Well done, you have replaced the commander, only to know exactly what you knew before, and wasted time before Garlan shows up with his van. Now what? Stannis is still going to face "Renly's ghost", and you have'nt even placed a single soldier on the north bank.

Stannis still fights all night with Garlan, so maybe the new commander will disembark the ~5,000 guys of the landing party on the south bank, to help Stannis. Now you bought Stannis some time before Tarly brings the center with ~60,000 foot. Now what?

The Balckwater is not going to change it's outcome if Stannis changes commanders. And if Stannis decides to attack from the north, his landing party will either end up alone once the Tyrells arrive, or the fleet will transport the second wave, and Stannis would have no escape route. Again, how is this a good plan? Because that's what Davos said? Davos is a smuggler, not a commander. It's the first time he is in a battle, his first time ramming an enemy ship, and he is about to storm a city with no fucking armor on?

Davos is cool and all, but that does not make him a battle commander.

Why not have a complete land based attack?? March North from SE - its quite close. Also why leave the Tyrell host unfought in his rear?? Mace Tyrell has no love for Stannis, especially since the siege of SE. Stannis has no Tyrell hostages and has just murdered Mace's son in law, not to mention that Mace has several times Stannis' numbers. Why did it not enter his mind that Mace could attack him?? And what about Tywin - Stannis should have realized that Tywin would come running as soon as KL was under threat so why were there no scouts keeping an eye on Tywin's whereabouts?? Why did a huge army numbering nearly 100k(very difficult to hide) manage to take Stannis in the rear if he is such a great general??

[Morienthar]

Because it's not important. The ability of the acting fleet commander is irrelevent.

No it isn't Stannis should have commanded the Navy himself.

Going into the narrow bay was a mistake in on itself,They should have drawn out the Royal Navy and smashed it in the open waters.

The Wildfire threat is more or less gone and you now have a few more ships too,Then go to the Kings Gate and Mud gate disembark and assault the walls,Loose a few thousand and have KL before the Tyrells get there.

[Siddard Stark]

Well stannis should have attacked the Tyrells as stannis had 20,000 cavalry whereas the tyrells had 60,000 foot-troops at bitterbridge and in-case stannis reached there a lot of them would have safely switched sides. After he took care of the Tyrell force he could have marched on King's landing having his new foot storm the walls of kings landing and having his horse act as rear-guard for a possible attack from Tywin lannister. 20,000 horse is a big cavalry force and can easily counter 60,000 foot if lead by a capable commander !!!

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

This is my wet dream. I would love to see stannis tactically go to town on tywin. He definitely is one of the greatest military minds of the time of ASOIAF. Maybe second behind robb stark

Im an ardant Robb over Stannis fan but Robb is nowhere near as good as Stannis. Robb may have gotten to his level someday but when he died he wasn't

[Nyrhex]

Why not have a complete land based attack?

Also why leave the Tyrell host unfought in his rear?

Why did a huge army numbering nearly 100k(very difficult to hide) manage to take Stannis in the rear if he is such a great general??

1. Because the Blackwater River is in the way...

2. He didn't. Tarly killed men who wanted to switch sides, and captured Stannis' envoys who were sent to bring the foot while Stannis was marching on KL.

3. He did send scouts. But GRRM needed the surprise, so Stannis' scouts, men from the Stormlands, farmiliar with the Kingswood, were picked off (with 100% efficiancy) by Vale wildlings, because they had some local guids. It's a BS plot-device, not Stannis' lack of capability.

No it isn't Stannis should have commanded the Navy himself.

Going into the narrow bay was a mistake in on itself,They should have drawn out the Royal Navy and smashed it in the open waters.

The Wildfire threat is more or less gone and you now have a few more ships too,Then go to the Kings Gate and Mud gate disembark and assault the walls,Loose a few thousand and have KL before the Tyrells get there.

1. Why command the fleet? It's a simple "advance and destroy the enemy". He needs to be with his main army, and command the overall battle. Standing on deck of the Fury would not have changed anything, but it would have given him perspective only on the fleet, while trusting the organisation of the transport of the troops with someone else. He was where he needed to be.

2. He can't take thier ships in the open, they won't come out because that negates thier advantage - narrow bay - 200 ships can only advance 20 at a time. He has no way to bait them out - it's against basic logic to come out of the Blackwater.

3. The landing party is still all alone while the defenders sally out to destroy each wave when it comes. It's not risking more men, it's risking the entire battle for no apparent reason, other then hindsight.

Well stannis should have attacked the Tyrells as stannis had 20,000 cavalry whereas the tyrells had 60,000 foot-troops at bitterbridge and in-case stannis reached there a lot of them would have safely switched sides. After he took care of the Tyrell force he could have marched on King's landing having his new foot storm the walls of kings landing and having his horse act as rear-guard for a possible attack from Tywin lannister. 20,000 horse is a big cavalry force and can easily counter 60,000 foot if lead by a capable commander !!!

Why attack them? He sent envoys to call them to his side, but Tarly took them and started killing people who wanted to go over to Stannis. If he attacked, it would have been a bloodbath, and given time to Tywin to bring his 20,000 men to defend the city. Now you face ~25-30,000 men, while your forces have just suffered massive losses in a pointless battle. This makes an assault on KL far less likely to succeed.

[Chaircat Meow]

Why attack them? He sent envoys to call them to his side, but Tarly took them and started killing people who wanted to go over to Stannis. If he attacked, it would have been a bloodbath, and given time to Tywin to bring his 20,000 men to defend the city. Now you face ~25-30,000 men, while your forces have just suffered massive losses in a pointless battle. This makes an assault on KL far less likely to succeed.

He didn't need to annihilate them but secure their support. Lots of the lords and knights in his army were the overlords of the foot left at BB. A rapid advance against them before Mace has an alternative king could have seen Stannis with all the power of the south.

And, tbh, Stannis had no way of knowing the infighting between the lannister siblings had caused the dependable red cloak guard to be sent to Riverrun, leaving the Red Keep bereft of a reliable garrison. Had that not happened, the lannister army might still have had time to get back to KL, while Stannis was camped out in a starving and hostile city, besieging only one of the lannister heirs given the other two had been evacuated.

[Nyrhex]

He didn't need to annihilate them but secure their support. Lots of the lords and knights in his army were the overlords of the foot left at BB. A rapid advance against them before Mace has an alternative king could have seen Stannis with all the power of the south.

Tarly and Loras still arrive sooner and kill all who wish to join Stannis. He will have 16,000 horse, against <60,000 infantry, and ~4,000 horse. It will be a bloodbath, and he has no reason to think that it is neccesary. When Tarly and Loras arrived lords started heading home already. Why people stayed before they knew of the alliance is another plot device. Mace is'nt there yet, so it's simply Loras' wish for vengance. But he can't command them anymore then Rickon can comman his father's bannermen.

And, tbh, Stannis had no way of knowing the infighting between the lannister siblings had caused the dependable red cloak guard to be sent to Riverrun, leaving the Red Keep bereft of a reliable garrison. Had that not happened, the lannister army might still have had time to get back to KL, while Stannis was camped out in a starving and hostile city, besieging only one of the lannister heirs given the other two had been evacuated.

Who cares if there are Lanister men? The city has fallen and the keep was done for all the same. Grapnel hooks and ladders and the keep would have fallen in an hour. Tywin had no chance to reach KL in time without the barges (another plot device that makes little sense, considering that they gathered them in Tully held territory, and close enough to Tywin not to notic a fucking Tyrell force at his flank just strolling like it owned the place).

[Lazy Lion]

Stannis is a very effective tactician; a proven battle commander.

But he has two weaknesses: he lacks understanding and skill with people (more on that later) and he has trouble adapting to tactics that are too outside the box.

Tyrion (mostly Tyrion, anyway) embarrasses him badly on the Blackwater, because Tyrion took standard tactics and turned them on their ear. Wildfire itself was not too unexpected--it was fired from catapults on occasion, but too expensive to ever be a game-changer. Tyrion made it the center of this battle plan, and that cost Stannis a great deal of time and men.

As far as Stannis was concerned, Blackwater was going to be a fairly straightforward battle. It wasn't. He had no idea that the combined Lannister/Tyrell army was coming, because the hill tribes had blinded his scouts. But more importantly, he didn't even know that the combined Lannister/Tyrell army existed, because he was unable to anticipate Tarly bringing the Tyrell infantry over to the Lannisters. That's why knowing people is important to a commander: he had a threat that he not only forgot to watch for, he didn't even know he needed to watch out for them.

So I would suggest that Stannis was a flexible, adaptable commander...up to a point. That could arguably be said of any battlefield commander, but Stannis' major defeat was a direct result of that factor. Whether he will be able to ID and correct that weakness remains to be seen: the battle beyond the wall was almost entirely conventional: the wildlings broke--and broke hard--under a heavy cavalry charge. That was anticipated, and while Stannis seems to have had some impressive tactical victories under his belt, I couldn't consider that one of them; the heavy cavalry was used as a "fire-and-forget" weapon. :dunno:

[E-Ro]

Well oxcross did have green boys in the force but not everyone was in-experienced in the force at oxcross plus the Lannisters didn't lack armour or weapons......................and I pointed out Stannis battle strategy at the wall that it was successful, but you are stuck at one point.........................the wildlings don't have any armour the ones tht have armour is of the NW or the armour is made of bones. Stannis had Knights on heavy horse. I'm not taking away Stannis's victory I was just pointing out that the wildings though had a few good warriors but very ill equipped, un-trained and no discipline. Thts why when LC Mormont learns abt the wildilings he wants to attack their flanks when the wildlings are advancing on the wall he thinks he can give them considerable losses because of my 3 reasons. Its jst my POV that I think Robb is better plus he was only 15 and a half years old and off to war....................unlike stannis he doesn't get to live a long life and participate in different wars. I jst feel like people don't give enough credit to the Starks they are always underated. Tywin on the other hand is brilliant but more ruthless. As far as battles go he hasn't fought any battle being the underdog whereas both Robb and Stannis had been underdogs as far as their troop numbers are concerned.

Where are you getting this info on oxcross from? The books say it was a force composed of green boys, with a small bit from the ww that escaped robb. At least the wildlings have experience fighting every day of their lives, their whole culture is based around this, raiding, fighting each other etc. Heck, their courtship rituals involve a man fighting a girls family to take her by force. Jon even wants to make one of the wildlings his master at arms because hes "better with a stone axe then most knights are with castle forged steel" This idea that a lack of steel makes you inept and worthless is simply incorrect. Equipment is an advantage, but so are numbers, unconventional weapons(mammoths, giants) andknowledge of the terrain. The wildlings are better off fighting in the snow then stannis' southern knights are. The wildlings had tons of advantages in this battle that are being overlooked out of ignorance. I don't think anyone in this thread is setting out to make stannis look bad, I just think people are speaking out of an ignorance on how medieval warfare works.

I find Robb's victories to be way more impressive than Stannis'. Robb may not have won the war but neither has Stannis. Stannis left an army of 70k Tyrell men(his enemies) undefeated in the rear while he attacked KL. That was extremely foolish(possibly a plot hole) - he had no outriders(or poor outriders) at the battle of BW, no idea where Mace or Tywin were either. Robb on the other hand always knew exactly where his enemies were and in what numbers, plus he had excellent outriders who kept him well informed of the geography of even foreign lands(thanks to BlackFish). He was never taken by surprise like Stannis was, even when he was fighting deep in Lannister lands.

Not to mention Robb was 15 when he started fighting(much younger than Stannis).

Another aspect which a good commander must have is love of his men - Stannis has respect of a few men in his army but has never had love. If he dies, his men wont die to put his daughter on the IT like the Northmen are doing for Ned/Robb. Robb, Ned and Robert had the charisma to be great leaders unlike Stannis.

Stannis is good but nowhere near as good as you make him out to be.

Stannis men seem to love him plenty, just massey vows to put stannis daughter on the throne if he should die. We dont know if he will or not, but he swore it on his honor, and I believe him, and stannis believes him. And sure, robb always knew where his enemies were, except for at the RW right? Many of robs men turned on him, boltons, freys, and karstarks. Why dont they count?

ETA: he might not be as good as im making him out to be, but hes better then robb. Thats for sure.

[Chaircat Meow]

Tarly and Loras still arrive sooner and kill all who wish to join Stannis. He will have 16,000 horse, against <60,000 infantry, and ~4,000 horse. It will be a bloodbath, and he has no reason to think that it is neccesary. When Tarly and Loras arrived lords started heading home already. Why people stayed before they knew of the alliance is another plot device. Mace is'nt there yet, so it's simply Loras' wish for vengance. But he can't command them anymore then Rickon can comman his father's bannermen.

You seriously think assuming the army will just go home and won't accept Tyrell orders is a good idea?

It's not.

Who cares if there are Lanister men? The city has fallen and the keep was done for all the same. Grapnel hooks and ladders and the keep would have fallen in an hour. Tywin had no chance to reach KL in time without the barges (another plot device that makes little sense, considering that they gathered them in Tully held territory, and close enough to Tywin not to notic a fucking Tyrell force at his flank just strolling like it owned the place).

It was done for because Cersei expected the garrison to sell her out. The whole point of having castles is that they hold out for some time when assailed by a hostile army. Assuming the castle will fall at the same time as the city is ludicrous. Why would anyone even bother with fortifications if they were that rubbish.

It was only such a race against time because the Keep looked liable to fall along with the city.

[Barty]

Stannis men seem to love him plenty, just massey vows to put stannis daughter on the throne if he should die. We dont know if he will or not, but he swore it on his honor, and I believe him, and stannis believes him. And sure, robb always knew where his enemies were, except for at the RW right? Many of robs men turned on him, boltons, freys, and karstarks. Why dont they count?

ETA: he might not be as good as im making him out to be, but hes better then robb. Thats for sure.

Love him?? Even of those remaining(a tiny minority of the original host), most follow Melisandre(Queen's Men) more than him(King's men). Also you cannot the compare traitors to enemies on the battlefield and even if we add that Stannis comes out to be far worse - Robb was betrayed by 3 houses(out of dozens) while Stannis was betrayed by nearly his entire army. My original point was Robb knew the positions and numbers of his enemies' armies at all times(even when they were hundreds of miles away) while Stannis had no clue where even a single enemy army was stationed or how close they were to his position. The fact that a 100k strong army managed to surprise him shows him in a very poor light as a battlefield commander.

Stannis is a fool if he thought that winning KL would gain him victory over the Lannisters - The enemy was always Tywin Lannister, not Joffrey. A 15 year old boy could see that but the Great Stannis was blind to it.

He's probably a very good commander but Robert, Ned and Robb are playing in a different league.

[E-Ro]

I think its interesting that common soldiers have such faith or fear in stannis, depending on if they are with or against him. We see boltons men in winterfell gripped by fear when stannis arrives(see my signature) We see tywin remark on how stannis is the greatest threat, and this is after the ww, and after renly has 100k men at his command.

I have felt from the beggining that Stannis was a greater threat then all the others combined.-Tywin Lannister

hen he heard the horn.

A long low moan, it seemed to hang above the battlements, lingering in the black air, soaking deep into the bones of every man who heard it. All along the castle walls, sentries turned toward the sound, their hands tightening around the shafts of their spears. In the ruined halls and keeps of Winterfell, lords hushed other lords, horses nickered, and sleepers stirred in their dark corners. No sooner had the sound of the warhorn died away than a drum began to beat: BOOM doom BOOM doom BOOM doom. And a name passed from the lips of each man to the next, written in small white puffs of breath. Stannis, they whispered, Stannis is here, Stannis is come, Stannis, Stannis, Stannis.

[Barty]

I think its interesting that common soldiers have such faith or fear in stannis, depending on if they are with or against him. We see boltons men in winterfell gripped by fear when stannis arrives(see my signature) We see tywin remark on how stannis is the greatest threat, and this is after the ww, and after renly has 100k men at his command.

I have felt from the beggining that Stannis was a greater threat then all the others combined.-Tywin Lannister

Perhaps I mis remember the quote from Tywin but didn't it imply that he thought Stannis was a greater threat than the others in the beginning but now he's doubting it since Stannis is sitting on his ass doing nothing while Robb is beating the shit out of Lannister armies??

[Chaircat Meow]

Perhaps I mis remember the quote from Tywin but didn't it imply that he thought Stannis was a greater threat than the others in the beginning but now he's doubting it since Stannis is sitting on his ass doing nothing while Robb is beating the shit out of Lannister armies??

Nope. Tywin is frustrated he has no word of Stannis' intentions. He wanted to finish his business with 'young lord Stark,' before he had to deal with Stannis and Renly.

[E-Ro]

Love him?? Even of those remaining(a tiny minority of the original host), most follow Melisandre(Queen's Men) more than him(King's men). Also you cannot the compare traitors to enemies on the battlefield and even if we add that Stannis comes out to be far worse - Robb was betrayed by 3 houses(out of dozens) while Stannis was betrayed by nearly his entire army. My original point was Robb knew the positions and numbers of his enemies' armies at all times(even when they were hundreds of miles away) while Stannis had no clue where even a single enemy army was stationed or how close they were to his position. The fact that a 100k strong army managed to surprise him shows him in a very poor light as a battlefield commander.

Stannis is a fool if he thought that winning KL would gain him victory over the Lannisters - The enemy was always Tywin Lannister, not Joffrey. A 15 year old boy could see that but the Great Stannis was blind to it.

Yeah, leaving the tyrells behind was a poor move, to be sure. But he did send men to get them to his side, randyle just moved faster then the florents. Robb was blessed with the blackfish, and a direwolf that can find secret unforgotten trails that no one knows about for some reason. Hence him knowing where the lannisters are. Also, robb excelled in one aspect of war, and thats leading cavalry. All he did was surprise attack people, the ww, oxcross, that's it. I agree, he is good, just not as good as stannis.

He's probably a very good commander but Robert, Ned and Robb are playing in a different league.

Wait, what? Ned, better then stannis? What battle did ned command other then the bells which he almost lost? Seriously, you might as well just post "anyone with the last name stark is automatically the best at everything" because thats what it boils down to.

[Barty]

Nope. Tywin is frustrated he has no word of Stannis' intentions. He wanted to finish his business with 'young lord Stark,' before he had to deal with Stannis and Renly.

Exactly my point - Robb just became number 1 priority for Tywin(more so than even Renly and his 100k army). That was my read of it anyways.

[JanAgro]

Wait, what? Ned, better then stannis? What battle did ned command other then the bells which he almost lost? Seriously, you might as well just post "anyone with the last name stark is automatically the best at everything" because thats what it boils down to.

Ned was heavily involved in the planning for the Battle of th trident, he was also in charge of the siege of Pike during Balon's rebellion

Personally Id rate stannis ahead of Ned because he seems to be a good naval and land commander.Even great land generals IRL like Marlborough and Wellington were not good naval commanders.The fact the Stannis is so well rounded gives him an advantage over the Starks who dont even have a navy

[What a Flayed Man Holds]

Good thread. And yes, I read the whole thing. Stannis haters need to recognize and reconsider. I have a few thoughts/doubts/contingencies at the bottom of this post, but first...

...

If Stannis has a weakness it is this - "human resources" his subordinate commanders are often useless. Braggarts, yes-men, fanatics, etc. - these are the Lords who support him, and many are the sort to switch sides and fail to match his tough standards.

Oddly enough, the best subordinates he has are the ones he seems to disregard the value of at first - Davos would not have led him so easily to disaster at King's Landing. Mance Rayder - his foe - would be his best asset against the Others. Jon Snow seems to be a natural leader with principles (so of course they clash). Crude and common, the Northmen he picks up are far better allies than all his King's and Queen's men. (Even Asha Greyjoy seems to be worth 10 of his knights and knights, if he could get past her being a Greyjoy and a woman and see that.)

Pod, I omitted the 1st half of your post for brevity's sake, but I completely agree with it. And his "human resources" are somewhat of a weak point, but that's not the whole picture. Yes, his lack of intelligence and poor choice of naval command going into the Blackwater was a costly mistake. When he left the Wall for the Mountain Clans/Deepwood/Winterfell, he took his best men with him, and left his douchiest guys at the Wall with Selyse where, as we know, they began to cause trouble. But personalities aside, the knights and captains he has left are battle hardened killers. Richard Horpe scares me IRL, and he's a fictional character. And these guys are loyal to the bone--they've spent years in the service of the longest-shot contender for the throne, endured defeat and severe privation, and they are not even close to giving up. It takes a hell of a leader to inspire that kind of loyalty, and Stannis has been with these guys a long time, he will definitely use them to their best effect, even if they're not perfect.

I think Stannis has proven himself to be a very flexible and adaptable battle commander. He's proven victorious on sea, land and siege.

Unquestionably. And with the Theon Sample Chapter out, you can add subterfuge to that list. It hasn't been confirmed, but it sure seems like the Pink Letter contains information about Stannis' defeat that Ramsay believed to be true, because it came from the Dreadfort maester embedded with the Karstarks, while unbeknownst to Ramsay, the Stannis had discovered this spy, and used his ravens to send out counter-intelligence designed to lure the Boltons into making the kind of knee-jerk mistake that Stannis wants [and would never make himself]. That is downright devious. Plus, he has Reek, and is using him to get a better sense of the enemy he's facing. Not only is he flexible and adaptable, but he learns from his mistakes.

Thoughts/Doubts/Contingencies:

Stannis' skill as a commander of men, in battle, is top-notch. Stannis' skill as a political leader is questionable. His affinity for R'hllor will continue to be controversial [especially with the resurgence of the Faith in the south]. It hasn't been mentioned in a while, but he let Melisandre burn the godswood at Storm's End, and had similar plans for the one at Winterfell--these things won't go over well in the North. He has lied to "the people" on at least two occasions [saying he burned Mance Rayder when he really didn't; promising Mors Crowfood Mance Rayder's skull for a drinking cup while knowing that Mance wasn't dead], and I could definitely see this coming back to haunt him, especially when Mance turns out to be alive. He has basically promised the mountain clans that he would execute Theon, but it already looks like that might not happen. And it's likely that there's a Stark-loyal force heading towards him from Skagos with Winterfell's own mine-by-rights heir, bringing an uncertain diplomatic situation that Stannis isn't expecting.

So he has some problems on the horizon, but to quote the late Lord Tywin, this is Stannis Baratheon--he will fight to the bitter end and then some. And I kind of want to see him win.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Can we not turn this into Dany vs. Stannis?

[Barty]

Yeah, leaving the tyrells behind was a poor move, to be sure. But he did send men to get them to his side, randyle just moved faster then the florents. Robb was blessed with the blackfish, and a direwolf that can find secret unforgotten trails that no one knows about for some reason. Hence him knowing where the lannisters are. Also, robb excelled in one aspect of war, and thats leading cavalry. All he did was surprise attack people, the ww, oxcross, that's it. I agree, he is good, just not as good as stannis.

And Stannis was blessed with a crazy witch who creates shadow assassins which removes his biggest enemy and also gains him an army. He was also blessed with Davos who saved his ass in the siege of SE. Stannis had more luck in this area(plot gifts) than Robb.

Wait, what? Ned, better then stannis? What battle did ned command other then the bells which he almost lost? Seriously, you might as well just post "anyone with the last name stark is automatically the best at everything" because thats what it boils down to.

Almost lost but won is much better than lost convincingly. Ned was one of the main commanders of the whole rebellion and probably the most important one as well since he had the biggest army out of the 4 rebel lords - it is extremely naive to think he had no input in war strategies. Also Balon's anger at Ned implies it was Ned who did the most damage to the GreyJoys(or Balon could just be mad).

You can sing praises for Stannis all day but the truth is he lost very convincingly on the BW while Ned fought multiple battles and always won.