Why does Dany not reassess her attitude towards the Dothraki?

[Djinn]

She favours the Dothraki because they are the first society were she was allowed to truly develop, so she's always slightly biased towards them. It her very own way of perceving things. For example, sellswords disloyal nature makes them betray the Yunkai for her-good, same sellswords betray her for Yunkai-evil.

When she says:''I'm just a little girl who knows little of...'' it's so very true, even if she doesn't realize it.

[Mad Monkey]

It her very own way of perceving things. For example, sellswords disloyal nature makes them betray the Yunkai for her-good, same sellswords betray her for Yunkai-evil.

To be fair, is there anyone in the series who wouldn't have that same reaction? You could use that argument against Eddard Stark ("goldcloaks side with me because I pay them = good, goldcloaks side against me and butcher my men because someone else paid them = bad"). It's only natural/human for people to like when good things happen to them and dislike it when bad things happen to them -- I think even a much older and more mature character would have been annoyed at Brown Ben having defected against her; certainly I don't think that there are many people who are serene enough to literally not perceive a difference between the two situations on a personal, selfish level.

She favours the Dothraki because they are the first society were she was allowed to truly develop, so she's always slightly biased towards them.

I definitely agree with you there. Before she met the Dothraki, she was just Viserys's suitcase, being shuttled around from place to place and treated like an object or a curiosity. With the Dothraki, she was a queen and was able to make real changes not just to other people (stopping them from raping the Lhazareen for instance) but to herself. She became the star and Viserys became the guy standing in the corner looking gorgeous but empty. It makes sense that she would view them fondly. She does seem to recognize their flaws though; there's a scene in the fifth book for instance when she reopens the fighting pits in Meereen and is discomfited by the way that Irri and Jhiqui are talking and joking about all the carnage that they're about to witness in the ring. She definitely doesn't agree with them and she chalks it up to the bloodthirsty nature of the Dothraki, which is an acknowledgment that while they may be her people she is not from the same world as they are.

It's going to be interesting to see how/if Dany acclimates to Westeros though. She's spent only a few days in Westeros; her entire life has been spent in Braavos, Qarth, Pentos, the Dothraki sea, and now Slaver's Bay. She may be Westerosi / Valyrian by blood, and obviously she has some knowledge of Westeros culture from descriptions that she's heard from other people but culturally she's 100% Essos.

[Samwell Gamgi]

She certainly doesn't think that she's a hero and she doesn't think that she can do no wrong. Despite all of Dany's sayings about her being the blood of the dragon and the blood of old Valyria, she is still a very lost young girl.

I agree she's nothing more than a lost girl and hasn't really come far at all from where she was in the beginning. That's why I say she wavers between who she really is and who she thinks she should be and her actions are leading her down the road of straight crazy Targaryen lady.

[Djinn]

To be fair, is there anyone in the series who wouldn't have that same reaction? You could use that argument against Eddard Stark ("goldcloaks side with me because I pay them = good, gold cloaks side against me and butcher my men because someone else paid them = bad"). It's only natural/human for people to like when good things happen to them and dislike it when bad things happen to them -- I think even a much older and more mature character would have been annoyed at Brown Ben having defected against her; certainly I don't think that there are many people who are serene enough to literally not perceive a difference between the two situations on a personal, selfish level.

But she seems to take it almost as a personal insult, while she benefited from this behavior not so long ago. Her reaction is not so much '' Dawn it, they switched sides again.'' and more ''How is this possible!?''. Like she choose to forget that they do that. Besides, Ned isn't really a good example of a reasonably wise person.

[total1402]

Brown Ben Plumm wasn't in charge of the Second Sons and they never betrayed their employers. She got them drunk and they surrendered. They then decided to join her once she won the war with Yunkai. She thought she was close to Brown Ben

It was Daarios Stormcrows who betrayed their employers and they have remained on Danys side.

So she shouldn't expect the Seconds Sons to betray her, they didn't switch sides like the Stormcrows and is personally offended as a result.

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

I think it is the "love" Stockholm syndrome I call it For Drogo that she can't bring herself to see them in a negative light and she now identifies herself as one of them.

I agree, it probably is Stockholm syndrome, there're enough reasons not to try to rationalize her beyond that.

[silentwanderer]

More importantly they believe in a "One true Khalasar" to defend the world and the "White grass that would cover it all".

For people who have never been north of the Wall, they sound quite accurate about the Night's Watch vs Others/White Walkers upcoming war.

Isn't the White Grass meant to be a plant in Ashai? Not the snow?

Its described as the White Grass they have seen in Ashai only because most Dothrakis have never seen snow.

The way it takes over and consumes the world sound like a pretty accurate take on "the night that never ends" described by Melisandre and the wildlings north of the Wall.

[Opa Tywin]

to me its simple she favours them. It happens she does see that what they do is wrong, but because she finds her identity and a place in the world with them and where she was happy it will be hard for her to see dothraki society is a full on negative way. Its human nature to be biased and she is with them. It happens

I agree. The reason why she has embraced and still embraces Dothraki culture is that among these savages she found a place to belong. Her time with the Dothraki enabled her to stand up to Viserys and to become a braver person in general.

And she DOES see the wrongs the Dothraki do.

[Djinn]

Brown Ben Plumm wasn't in charge of the Second Sons and they never betrayed their employers. She got them drunk and they surrendered. They then decided to join her once she won the war with Yunkai. She thought she was close to Brown Ben

It was Daarios Stormcrows who betrayed their employers and they have remained on Danys side.

So she shouldn't expect the Seconds Sons to betray her, they didn't switch sides like the Stormcrows and is personally offended as a result.

But the first thing that anyone says about sellswords is their fickle loyalty. Every single character has a scene like that in ASOIAF. Tyrion's sellswords leave him after Blackwater, Vargo leaves the Lannisters after the Stone Mill, etc. The second sons could have just left instead they choose to join with a enemy of their employers. She chooses to forget their nature, just like she does with the Dothraki, when it's convenient. But when she learns of other sellswords working for the Yunkai, she starts trying to turn them.

[total1402]

Its a matter of Dany being very vulnerable and her paranoia over betrayel. She does not like how somebody she assumed was a friend in Brown Ben betrayed her. Its the personal relationship and trust which upsets her especially since she wants to rely on those around her. So its not an attitude to Sellswords. If she had a more distanced and less personal relationship then she could have just shrugged her shoulders and not been so hurt by it.

[The Fourth Head]

I personally feel the whole "forced to kill pet dog/forced to kill newborn baby on a genocidal scale/castrating enslaved boy/mother as property-coin to owner" thing really places Slavers Bay far, far below any other society we have yet to encounter. Dany is right to view Slaver's Bay as a worse society than the Dothraki.

This isn't might-is-right brutality- this is something truly, tortuously, cruelly evil.

I think it's also worth pointing out that most of her encounters with Slavers Bay have been bad, and a lot of her experiences with the Dothraki have been good. She was greeted with scorn and contempt in slavers bay, was horrified by their practices, and has been at war with them ever since. Their subjugation of others is apparent every moment of the day. I think she reacts accordingly to each given circumstance, and is able to see both the good and the bad in people and cultures. Sadly, there is nothing good to see in the culture of Slavers Bay. They have no apparent honour or morality, which is not the same as the Dothraki, who, as it has been pointed out, have other codes of honour such as respecting their old, and unswerving loyalty.

For a girl who has lost everyone and been betrayed/been on the run from assassins her whole life, and who, to rub it in, has had to endure Quaithe's paranoid prophesies, it is very understandable how the true loyalty of Dothraki blood-riders can have so much appeal to her.

[danm_999]

Introspection, by design, isn't one or Daenerys' strengths and self reflection is something she struggles with ('if I look back I am lost').

With all she has on her plate, it isn't terribly surprising to me she hasn't really reconciled that she was perfectly willing (though unhappy) to have Drogo enslave and sell the Lhazareen as the "price" for the fleet that would give her the Seven kingdoms, but now finds that trade so abhorrent it needs to be ended.

An optimist would say its because she realised that the slave trade was wrong only when she got to Astapor. A cynic would say its because by the time she got to Astapor, it was more profitable for her to smash the slave trade, instead of upholding it.

[silentwanderer]

For a girl who has lost everyone and been betrayed/been on the run from assassins her whole life, and who, to rub it in, has had to endure Quaithe's paranoid prophesies, it is very understandable how the true loyalty of Dothraki blood-riders can have so much appeal to her.

Its more or less the appeal Brienne had for Renly: loyalty without a price. Daenerys can trust the Dothraki that remained with her as much as she can trust the Dothraki who didn't would respect her strenght if nothing else.

In a world full of traitors, the savages are the only ones she can rely on.

[missclaire17]

That's one of the things with Dany. I loved her and Drogo as a couple (I will ship them to the end of the world), but because the Dothraki were the ones who helped her gain her own sense of identity and grow out of the shy girl who was bullied by her brother and because Dany loves/loved Drogo, she can easily forget to see all of that. Out of all the people in Essos and in Westeros, I think Dany really only care for the Dothraki. She doesn't know the people of Westeros, and aside from liberating the slaves, I don't think she cares too much beyond wanting the slaves to be free. Of course the Dothraki culture have a lot of things better than Slaver's Bay such as the loyalty of the bloodriders (to just name one), which can easily be added to why Dany doesn't mind. But in the end, I still think she needs a wholesome view of everyone, even the Dothraki. She can't hate one society for slavery and love another society that still practices slavery, no matter how much better that society may be. That's truly hypocritical.

Maybe Dany will wake up to her blindness in TWOW; I like Dany, but I'm uncertain about wanting her on the Iron Throne because she can be very blinded by all of the things that she really doesn't know or things that she doesn't care to know.

[silentwanderer]

I think the difference is that she's bound to Westeros, it's like a mission for Daenerys.

The Dothraki are hers by choice, as they were born free to choose it.

[Harpo of House Trashcan]

Broadly speaking my impression is that Dany greatly admires their society and sees them as noble savages; in many regards better than Westerosi. Her comparison of the Kingsguard who killed her father to Bloodriders is telling. She also defends them against Viserys claim that they are "savages" and are her people now. She even allows her handmaidens to put bells in her hair, braids it and prefers to wear simple Dothraki clothing.

However I just don't understand how this attitude remains intact even by the end of Game of Thrones and certainly by ASOS. She sees first hand that the Dothraki are a society based on plunder, slavery and rape in AGOT. She objects, but seems to bubble this into an issue that never touches her overall attitude. Later, not only does one of the bloodriders she vaunted nearly kill her and her child; but one also rapes a woman whom she had tried protect. Again, Dany only speaks of individuals. Then Drogos entire Khallessar abandons her and she learns that this society expects to rip her child out of her womb as normal. Again, no ill feelings and it doesn't impact her favorable opinion. But finally by ASOS Dany is on a crusade to liberate all slaves and believes it to be a great evil. However, whilst she dams the effete oriental slaver lords she simply doesn't compute that the Dothraki are the biggest slavers in the world. They're the ones who hoard their slaves and sell them in Slavers Bay. Dany saw this firsthand with Drogo and he told her he intended to do this to the Westerosi.

Again, I just find it bizarre that she never sees the Dothraki in a negative light even on reflection even when her experiences with them should give her a negative opinion. The ones with her are exceptions to the rule in that they continued to follow her and were loyal.

There are two reasons why this is-

1-Its gonna be an issue between Dany and the Dothraki in Winds of Winter when she meets them and regains Drogos Khallessar. Forcing them to act as she wants under threat of death and changing them.

2- Martin wants her to become a Khalessi again and therefore doesn't want her to become prejudiced against the Dothraki and to fit easily into this role. Even when it simply doesn't make sense. He wants her to embrace this identity and for it to be a major feature of her arc. So, she simply can't come to dislike the Dothraki.

Frankly I really don't like the noble savage routine Martin does with the Dothraki and Wildlings. I especially don't like how Dany is so besotted by the Dothraki culture and identity. Its gives too much of an Essosi character to Dany and her story.

She does it out of love for her late Sun and Stars

[Parwan]

It is inaccurate to say that Daenerys never sees the Dothraki in a negative light. It is extremely inaccurate to say that she is besotted by Dothraki culture and identity. Dany clearly moves away from identifying with the horselords, and she embraces things which they reject. When one converts to one system of belief, say Islam, one necessarily rejects others, say Hinduism. It isn't necessary for a Muslim convert to publish a manifesto declaring that polytheism is wrong and that reincarnation is impossible. The dragon queen frees slaves, refuses to go to the Vaes Dothrak, engages in trade (something the Dothraki apparently don't understand, or perhaps don't want to understand), and does a number of other things which show she sees a good bit of the nomad's culture in a negative light. Finally, she does make a few statements which are explicit rejections of the Dothraki way.

Although Dany sees much wrong with the the horselords' methods, she never does apply such judgements to Drogo. He remains her sun and stars. In this, as in much else, she is similar to most characters in ASoIaF. In one way or another, most residents of the seven kingdoms exhibit a slavish devotion to the leader.

...

I really hate the blind Dany hate from some posters that try to erase every good deed or good intention just because things didn't wind up perfect. I love Dany, I love her flaws, I love that she's trying to do the right thing and learn even though she has no one to teach her...

I am very much a Dany fan in at least one sense. I say that she is an interesting character. My main disagreement with the more extreme Dany critics is with the assertion that her POVs are boring and only a distraction from the main action. Probably some of this is just a matter of taste. If you favor certain kinds of writing (e.g. a fast pace), then you won't like certain kinds of story telling. There's not much use in discussing matters of this sort. You like vanilla; I like chocolate; that's the way it is.

That's her dilemna. If she wants to fulfil her ambitions, she'll have to be prepared to employ soldiers who murder, rape, and plunder, and be able to treat such things with indifference. Her internal comment, when the Lhazareen town was sacked, that this was the price of the Iron Throne, was correct.

Well, that's one of her dilemmas.

There are other matters of concern, e.g. madness. This is a theme, not only with the Targaryens, but throughout ASoIaF. It is one of the reasons why Dany fits into things, why her story is not truly split off from the rest of the tale, and why I find her interestiing. A theme more relevant to the current thread is identification--with the family, the culture, the realm, etc. Again, Daenerys's story is part of the greater story, and it is interesting, at least to me.

Dany enters Qarth dressed as a khaleesi. In Meereen she wears a tokar; she doesn't like the garment, but she wears it nevertheless. In the Dothraki sea, Ser Jorah told her that she had started to talk like a queen.

"'Not a queen,' said Dany. 'A khaleesi.'"

But this attitude turns around 180 degrees. In ASoS she refuses to march from Meereen.

"I have been more khal than queen, smashing and plundering, then moving on."

Obviously, this is not just a criticism of a particular individual. it is a rejection of khals in general. and thus of Dothraki methods in general. She opts not to see herself as a khaleesi. She will "Stay...Rule. And be a queen."

[Dany Girl]

It is inaccurate to say that Daenerys never sees the Dothraki in a negative light. It is extremely inaccurate to say that she is besotted by Dothraki culture and identity. Dany clearly moves away from identifying with the horselords, and she embraces things which they reject. When one converts to one system of belief, say Islam, one necessarily rejects others, say Hinduism. It isn't necessary for a Muslim convert to publish a manifesto declaring that polytheism is wrong and that reincarnation is impossible. The dragon queen frees slaves, refuses to go to the Vaes Dothrak, engages in trade (something the Dothraki apparently don't understand, or perhaps don't want to understand), and does a number of other things which show she sees a good bit of the nomad's culture in a negative light. Finally, she does make a few statements which are explicit rejections of the Dothraki way.

Although Dany sees much wrong with the the horselords' methods, she never does apply such judgements to Drogo. He remains her sun and stars. In this, as in much else, she is similar to most characters in ASoIaF. In one way or another, most residents of the seven kingdoms exhibit a slavish devotion to the leader.

I am very much a Dany fan in at least one sense. I say that she is an interesting character. My main disagreement with the more extreme Dany critics is with the assertion that her POVs are boring and only a distraction from the main action. Probably some of this is just a matter of taste. If you favor certain kinds of writing (e.g. a fast pace), then you won't like certain kinds of story telling. There's not much use in discussing matters of this sort. You like vanilla; I like chocolate; that's the way it is.

Well, that's one of her dilemmas.

There are other matters of concern, e.g. madness. This is a theme, not only with the Targaryens, but throughout ASoIaF. It is one of the reasons why Dany fits into things, why her story is not truly split off from the rest of the tale, and why I find her interestiing. A theme more relevant to the current thread is identification--with the family, the culture, the realm, etc. Again, Daenerys's story is part of the greater story, and it is interesting, at least to me.

Dany enters Qarth dressed as a khaleesi. In Meereen she wears a tokar; she doesn't like the garment, but she wears it nevertheless. In the Dothraki sea, Ser Jorah told her that she had started to talk like a queen.

"'Not a queen,' said Dany. 'A khaleesi.'"

But this attitude turns around 180 degrees. In ASoS she refuses to march from Meereen.

"I have been more khal than queen, smashing and plundering, then moving on."

Obviously, this is not just a criticism of a particular individual. it is a rejection of khals in general. and thus of Dothraki methods in general. She opts not to see herself as a khaleesi. She will "Stay...Rule. And be a queen."

I absolutely agree with you. I love Dany because I find her fascinating. The way she has attempted to remake herself in every situation shows she is learning and growing. Her story is about learning to rule more than just popping over to Westros expecting to be handed the country. She knows she's not ready for that so she's attempting to learn. She doesn't want Meereen to end up like Astapor. If she can be a good queen and show them they don't need slavery then when she leaves they won't revert (I believe this is her logic).

[Light a wight tonight]

It can only be said for those with her that shes changed them.

The rest of the Dothraki are the same as before and its her attitude towards these that is so difficult to understand. You can't have a character who wants to flay one group of slavers on sight and yet thinks another group of slavers is awesome.

Does Dany actually think of the Dothraki as awesome or just as a tool she can use to "regain" her throne? Since Drogo's death she has only associated with her own mini-khalassar, whom she has influenced away from the more egregious barbarities that Dothraki in general practice.

[total1402]

Does Dany actually think of the Dothraki as awesome or just as a tool she can use to "regain" her throne? Since Drogo's death she has only associated with her own mini-khalassar, whom she has influenced away from the more egregious barbarities that Dothraki in general practice.

She believes they are awesome. She admires the strength and vigor of the society. She likes the idea that they take what they want and can advance to the top. It parrallels her own desire for self improvement and gaining power from nothing. She refuses to accept that this ruthlessness means they trample others weaker than them into dust. Whenever a dothraki does anything bad because of this philosophy she simply bubbles it up and puts it down to individuals.

Plus @ Parawen. She may have felt that in end of ASOS. But by end of ADWD she has done another 180 degrees and given up on being a Queen,. hence reintorduction to Dothraki and meaning she will once again become a Khalessi. So we'll once again have her looking like an extra off Conan and twenty extra Dothraki characters introduced to explain their role. As well as most of Winds Dany arc dedicated towards them; naturally. Its even more annoying because like the Sellswords this just creates more people who are going to betray Dany or turn even more people in Westeros against her.