Robb Starks end plan?

[Victarion10]

What was Robb's goal other than destroying Joffrey, would he have tried to end the Lannister line if he had won the war? If Stannis died on the Blackwater, would he have tried to claim kingship for himself or would he let Tommen rule as King (provided he didn't kill him, though I cant see that happening) Did he just want Cersei, Jaime and Joffrey dead or would he have wanted Tywin's head too?

[RKOpanther]

Robbs plan originally was to ally with Renly, kill the Lannisters then rule the North as KITN.

[Morienthar]

He didn't have one.

He wanted to kill Joff,Cersei,Jaime and Tywin and get the Girls back other than that he didn't really care.

[Victarion10]

So Robb was doomed from the beginning then?

[Morienthar]

So Robb was doomed from the beginning then?

More or less,The Best he could have done is sued for peace by returning Jaime for the Girls after the Whispering Woods without bending the knee,Tywin would have given anything for Jaime at that point.

[RKOpanther]

So Robb was doomed from the beginning then?

He was doomed because of Stannis and Melissandre as was Renly, Joffrey and Balon

[Morienthar]

He was doomed because of Stannis and Melissandre as was Renly, Joffrey and Balon

Balon and Robb were doomed way before that.

[N/A]

The iron throne was dependent on the lanisters, his plan was to take out tywin and scatter the western forces, no one would follow cersei at which point the iron throne has no one to lean on, and then would have been forced to sue for peace with or without cersei, a revolt in Kl is not unlikely if tywin was defeated and cersei refused peace and then it's back to winterfell for a happily ever after

[Erkan12]

He would rule the westeros from North. Or leave it to Tyrells except Trident and North. (Stannis is no option since he would attack Robb after the Lannisters)

Maybe he want to avenge his brothers with attacking Iron Isles and claim there himself too.

[RKOpanther]

Balon and Robb were doomed way before that.

How? They just wanted to rule their own realms. Although if Robb had returned North to battle the Greyjoys, one would be doomed by the other.

[RKOpanther]

He would rule the westeros from North. Or leave it to Tyrells except Trident and North. Maybe he want to avenge his brothers too, with attacking Iron Isles and claim there himself too.

Renly had agreed to allow Robb be King in the North after they destroyed the Lannisters.

[The Crow]

He was to kill All da lannisters then he was to kill da Khaleesi when she comes over THEN he was going to be da best king ever!

A man can dream, can he not?

[David Selig]

Renly had agreed to allow Robb be King in the North after they destroyed the Lannisters.

Not really. Renly agreed to allow Robb to call himself king but he demanded that Robb swear fealty to him and in practice be no different from the other Lords Paramount.

[Erkan12]

Renly had agreed to allow Robb be King in the North after they destroyed the Lannisters.

I was thinking that after Renly's death.

But Renly's offer is not enough. He give to Robb only North, not Trident. Also he want to swear loyalty this means his title is empty, it can not be accepted by Robb...

[Morienthar]

How? They just wanted to rule their own realms. Although if Robb had returned North to battle the Greyjoys, one would be doomed by the other.

Lets be fair here Balon and Robb did the same mistakes take places they had no hope of holding and attack people they have no real hope of defeating completely.

[Teren_Kanan]

Lets be fair here Balon and Robb did the same mistakes take places they had no hope of holding and attack people they have no real hope of defeating completely.

Robb had plenty of hope at victory. He actually had a stunning amount. His enemy had 2 other "Kings" moving against them. Things were actually in Robb's favor once the fighting started. He was "winning". And could have continued to do so.

Until Balon attacked the North, Robb Betrayed the Frey's, and Stannis hired a witch. All three Robb had no way of predicting, since he was not privy to the books.

[Morienthar]

Robb had plenty of hope at victory. He actually had a stunning amount. His enemy had 2 other "Kings" moving against them. Things were actually in Robb's favor once the fighting started. He was "winning". And could have continued to do so.

Until Balon attacked the North, Robb Betrayed the Frey's, and Stannis hired a witch. All three Robb had no way of predicting, since he was not privy to the books.

Robb took the crown and isolated himself,He'd have had to fight even those two Kings in the future.

[Chaircat Meow]

Robb Stark never had one plan with which he intended to achieve victory. He had different plans at different times as the circumstances he was confronted with changed. We have to piece together what these plans were ourselves; they are not always laid out explicitly, or without ambiguity.

Initially Robb wanted to secure Ned’s release by defeating a lannister army and capturing an important hostage, (who could be exchanged for Ned and his sisters) in addition to aiding his maternal relations in their war with lord Tywin. It is implied that after he achieved this (which he did) he hoped for a settlement with the Iron Throne. Unfortunately, Joffrey, through the connivance of Littlefinger, had Ned put to death, and honour, as well as the desire for revenge, meant Robb no longer desired to make peace and bend the knee to Joff. He was thusly swept up in the enthusiasm for the new northern kingdom.

From then on his war aims were to secure recognition of his new kingdom of the north and rivers, apparently through a peace with Cersei, which would involve the Starks holding westermen hostages for a long period, one of whom would have been the kingslayer. He made a peace offer through Ser Cleos Frey, but, as Catelyn pointed out, it was inherently unlikely that it would be accepted and Robb, on finding out about the new lannister army being raised outside Casterly Rock, determined to do more to persuade the lannisters to accept his unpalatable overtures. He therefore invaded the west, and hoped for aid from the Greyjoys to speed along the endeavour.

Later, Robb claimed that the western invasion, far from being a move to compel a peace with king’s landing, was actually part of a scheme to draw lord Tywin away from Harrenhal, so that Stannis could seize king’s landing and thus end lannister pretensions to the Iron Throne altogether. It is very unlikely this was actually true. Robb’s goals were recognition for the new kingdom, forged after his victories over Jaime. King Stannis would have been no more amenable to Robb’s goals than king Joffrey, and when Robb departed he must have assumed Renly’s advance would render Tywin unable to pursue him west anyway, and thusly he issued no instructions to Edmure to allow Tywin’s army passage across the riverlands. He lied about this to Edmure to persuade him to marry the Frey girl he himself had spurned by marrying Jeyne Westerling. It is actually this face saving lie that gives many the impression that Robb had a coherent plan, that would secure an end to the war and peace and security for the Starks. If one accepts that Robb actually wasn't being honest about the real reasons behind his plans, our appreciation of his strategic vision has to take a veritable nose dive.

This is so because, throughout his brief kingship, Robb actually showed a remarkable dearth of strategic and political foresight. He seemed to have no interest in factoring the Baratheon brothers into his plans at all, for instance. He must have known neither would accept him as king of the Trident, so unless he effectively gave up his new kingdom it would come to war with either Renly or Stannis, even if Tywin was defeated. There is little sign he was overly concerned with this, and he left diplomatic efforts on this front to his mother.

His dealings with Balon Greyjoy actually show a similar ineptitude. Robb wanted Balon to invade the west, with his forces under the command of Theon, who wanted to hold the Rock and other western lordships in perpetuity, as a reward for the aid the ironborn would provide the Starks. Yet, as Robb hoped for this as a means of making peace with the lannisters, he can never have guaranteed the Greyjoy gains in the west himself, and in fact his policy was contradictory. He was fighting a campaign to achieve peace and security, by means of a strategy that would make peace all but impossible to achieve.

In the end, after Ned was executed, Robb was fighting a war of vengeance, that was mixed up with the political goal of securing his new kingdom. As he seemed unconcerned with the Baratheon brothers, who actually looked likely to replace the lannisters anyway, his actual policies made little to no strategic sense. As Catelyn pointed out, a wiser man would have made a more compelling peace offer from the start. The Starks would ultimately have been better served if Catelyn remained in charge of their campaigns, as regent for Robb, allowing Robb to participate in military leadership, alongside his uncle, the Blackfish.

[Erkan12]

In the end, after Ned was executed, Robb was fighting a war of vengeance, that was mixed up with the political goal of securing his new kingdom. As he seemed unconcerned with the Baratheon brothers, who actually looked likely to replace the lannisters anyway, his actual policies made little to no strategic sense. As Catelyn pointed out, a wiser man would have made a more compelling peace offer from the start. The Starks would ultimately have been better served if Catelyn remained in charge of their campaigns, as regent for Robb, allowing Robb to participate in military leadership, alongside his uncle, the Blackfish.

Yeah blame Robb because all this, did you read the last Catelyn pov in AGoT ?

“Why not a peace?” Catelyn asked.

The lords looked at her, but it was Robb’s eyes she felt, his and his alone. “My lady, they murdered my lord father, your husband,” he said grimly. He unsheathed his longsword and laid it on the table before him, the bright steel on the rough wood. “This is the only peace I have for Lannisters.”

The Greatjon bellowed his approval, and other men added their voices, shouting and drawing swords and pounding their fists on the table. Catelyn waited until they had quieted. “My lords,” she said then, “Lord Eddard was your liege, but I shared his bed and bore his children. Do you think I love him any less than you?” Her voice almost broke with her grief, but Catelyn took a long breath and steadied herself. “Robb, if that sword could bring him back, I should never let you sheathe it until Ned stood at my side once more . . . but he is gone, and hundred Whispering Woods will not change that. Ned is gone, and Daryn Hornwood, and Lord Karstark’s valiant sons, and many other good men besides, and none of them will return to us. Must we have more deaths still?”

“You are a woman, my lady,” the Greatjon rumbled in his deep voice. “Women do not understand these things.”

“You are the gentle sex,” said Lord Karstark, with the lines of grief fresh on his face. “A man has a need for vengeance.”

“Give me Cersei Lannister, Lord Karstark, and you would see how gentle a woman can be,” Catelyn replied. “Perhaps I do not understand tactics and strategy . . . but I understand futility. We went to war when Lannister armies were ravaging the riverlands, and Ned was a prisoner, falsely accused of treason. We fought to defend ourselves, and to win my lord’s freedom.

“Well, the one is done, and the other forever beyond our reach. I will mourn for Ned until the end of my days, but I must think of the living. I want my daughters back, and the queen holds them still. If I must trade our four Lannisters for their two Starks, I will call that a bargain and thank the gods. I want you safe, Robb, ruling at Winterfell from your father’s seat. I want you to live your life, to kiss a girl and wed a woman and father a son. I want to write an end to this. I want to go home, my lords, and weep for my husband.”

The hall was very quiet when Catelyn finished speaking.

“Peace,” said her uncle Brynden. “Peace is sweet, my lady . . . but on what terms? It is no good hammering your sword into a plowshare if you must forge it again on the morrow.”

“What did Torrhen and my Eddard die for, if I am to return to Karhold with nothing but their bones?” asked Rickard Karstark.

“Aye,” said Lord Bracken. “Gregor Clegane laid waste to my fields, slaughtered my smallfolk, and left Stone Hedge a smoking ruin. Am I now to bend the knee to the ones who sent him? What have we fought for, if we are to put all back as it was before?”

Did any lord agree with Cat ? Any ? Even his uncle and river lords disagree with her, and you are blaming Robb :bs:

Cat want peace because she was afraid from Lannisters and she want her daughters. It is not logical it completely emotional, thats why Karstarks left Robb, because of Cat's fault.

Later, Robb claimed that the western invasion, far from being a move to compel a peace with king’s landing, was actually part of a scheme to draw lord Tywin away from Harrenhal, so that Stannis could seize king’s landing and thus end lannister pretensions to the Iron Throne altogether. It is very unlikely this was actually true. Robb’s goals were recognition for the new kingdom, forged after his victories over Jaime. King Stannis would have been no more amenable to Robb’s goals than king Joffrey, and when Robb departed he must have assumed Renly’s advance would render Tywin unable to pursue him west anyway, and thusly he issued no instructions to Edmure to allow Tywin’s army passage across the riverlands. He lied about this to Edmure to persuade him to marry the Frey girl he himself had spurned by marrying Jeyne Westerling. It is actually this face saving lie that gives many the impression that Robb had a coherent plan, that would secure an end to the war and peace and security for the Starks. If one accepts that Robb actually wasn't being honest about the real reasons behind his plans, our appreciation of his strategic vision has to take a veritable nose dive.

Do you know what Edmure said ?

Edmure looked ill. “I never meant ... never, Robb, you must let me make amends. I will lead the van in the next battle!”

The propose came from Catelyn not Robb. And you are saying that Robb lie to Edmure because of this.

“We must win back the Freys,” said Robb. “With them, we still have some chance of success, however small. Without them, I see no hope. I am willing to give Lord Walder whatever he requires ... apologies, honors, lands, gold ... there must be something that would soothe his pride...”

“Not something,” said Catelyn. “Someone.”

Sorry but, Catelyn has fault about this too.

[David Selig]

Yeah, yeah, everything is Catelyn's fault, always. Robb the genius is never to blame. :bs: