Best spot for a naval base in the western coast of the North

[AzureOwl]

We know that the North hasn't had any strength at sea since Brandon the Burner destroyed his father's fleet. This has proven problematic more than once, but it seems that the Manderlys have begun to take steps to remedy the situation somewhat.

However, while White Harbor may make an ideal naval base to protect the North's maritime interests, this only applies to the coast of the Shivering Sea. And as we all know, the biggest naval threat the North faces is in the west, with the Ironborn in the Sunset Sea.

So the North needs to develop a counterpart to White Harbor in the Sunset Sea. What would make the best location to develop a naval base / small mercantile city on the Sunset Sea? Where was the spot where Brandon the Shipwright built his fleet and set sail in his doomed expedition?

[Stan the Man]

Looking at the map the most southerly point of the Rills, or the north of cape Kraken would seem to be a good place to build, as it has access to 2 main rivers and it seems to be a fairly defensible position.

[Blutraven]

Making a second naval base at Flint's Finger would be a good idea, there's already a lord stationed and it looks to be a good place for a harbour. As there are nearby rivers leading to Barrowton and Torrhen's Square, it's in a good place to transport goods to the rest of the north as well,

[Free Northman]

Well Brandon had to launch his fleet from somewhere when he sailed off into the Sunset Sea.

I reckon that if the Ironborn were eradicated, a port on the West Coast would suddenly become a lot more appealing. You'd probably have small ports at Bear Island, Deepwood, the Stony Shore, and maybe one on the coast of the Rills as well. A bunch of Maidenpool type of places

[Yakman]

Supposing that the North makes it through the winter with the good guys in charge (the Boltons wouldn't care a whit for securing the west), the Ironborn crushed (so long as the Iron Isles can control the sunset sea with impunity, building a port on the western coast makes little sense), and people still alive (them thar Others...), the North might be able build a fleet in the west.

But, for what purpose? The only metropolitan area in the North is White Harbor. There is good, cleared land in the Gift and New Gift. I don't see a reason for Winterfell to invest in this endeavor. Building stronger castles would make more sense.

[AzureOwl]

Supposing that the North makes it through the winter with the good guys in charge (the Boltons wouldn't care a whit for securing the west), the Ironborn crushed (so long as the Iron Isles can control the sunset sea with impunity, building a port on the western coast makes little sense), and people still alive (them thar Others...), the North might be able build a fleet in the west.

A purely commercial port on the west would make little sense with the Ironborn in control of the Sunset Sea, I agree. Thats the point, the North needs a naval presence in the west so the Ironborn cannot control the western sea with impunity.

Sort of ethnically cleansing the Iron Islands, there will always be the threat of another Dagon Greyjoy popping up and raiding the western coast of the North.

But, for what purpose? The only metropolitan area in the North is White Harbor. There is good, cleared land in the Gift and New Gift. I don't see a reason for Winterfell to invest in this endeavor. Building stronger castles would make more sense.

Again, you're thinking in purely economic terms. Under the present conditions building a port in the west makes little sense. But what I'm considering is the reverse... building a port in the western coast in order to change the current balance of power at sea in the area.

[SkaggCannibal]

A naval base must surely include a castle I believe. And it will need be a strong one, to not make the Ironborn mouths water. I would place it south of Barrowton, at the coast of the Saltspear. With a decent warningsystem along the coast they should well be warned ahead if any enemy fleet sails up the Saltspear. It's actually not that far from Whiteharbour, so if a new, decent road (railway would be nice lol) was laid, it would mean they could transport goods there over land. This would mean traders from the Sunset Sea can practically sell goods at the one big trading centre of the North, same as the ones from the Shivering Sea (situation like Oldtown). This would hopefully only be a temporary situation as this new settlement over time should turn into its own trading centre with strong ties to Whiteharbour. It's also as close south as you can get in North.

I first wanted to say somewhere in the Fever River, but as the name says it's probably a swamp there, with diseases that won't make it attractive. Damn marshes, probably in the way of my Great Road to Whiteharbour too.

[Light a wight tonight]

Looking at the map one thing jumps out: The Westlands and Riverlands are more exposed to the Ironborn than the North is, are richer targets, and the population center of the Westlands is very close to the Iron Islands. Conversely, the North's population and trade center is in the east, with access to Essos and no exposure to raiders from the Iron Islands.

Why would the North be the ones to police the Ironborn? If anything they are a problem for all of Westeros and should be dealt with by the Iron Throne.

[AzureOwl]

Looking at the map one thing jumps out: The Westlands and Riverlands are more exposed to the Ironborn than the North is, are richer targets, and the population center of the Westlands is very close to the Iron Islands. Conversely, the North's population and trade center is in the east, with access to Essos and no exposure to raiders from the Iron Islands.

I think the causation goes the other way. The reason the western half of the North is so underdeveloped is because it's so exposed to Ironborn raiding and pillaging.

Why would the North be the ones to police the Ironborn?

There's a difference between policing the Ironborn and having an effective defense in place in case they come raiding. In the more densely populated Westlands and the Riverlands, local lords with holdings on the shore all keep a galley or three at hand to deal with the Ironborn. The western coast of the North doesn't appear to have enough lords to replicate this, so a centralized defense fleet would be necessary in order to secure the North's flank and potentially develop the region.

If anything they are a problem for all of Westeros and should be dealt with by the Iron Throne.

Precedent shows that post-Conquest, the Ironborn only become a serious problem when the Iron Throne is weakened or distracted. Dagon Greyjoy had free hand to do whatever the hell he wanted because Bloodraven was obsessed with keeping the Royal Fleet in the Narrow Sea in case the Blackfyres tried anything. And if the Iron Throne could be relied upon to keep the Ironborn contained, the Redwynes wouldn't need to keep a standing fleet of upwards of 200 warships.

[Robar]

Sea Dragon Point, Asha mentions that she would like to set up shop there. It's quite to the north, though.

[Corvo Attano]

Whichever coastal castle is nearest to Barrowton

[Djinn]

Set up the Giants and wildings in the Western shore. That should give the Ironborn trouble enough.

[Strongest Of All Belwas]

Set up the Giants and wildings in the Western shore. That should give the Ironborn trouble enough.

Will the Giants have canoes?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Pyke. That's at least 9/10 seriously. Get Asha to work on it and integrate the Ironborn into the North.

[Strongest Of All Belwas]

Pyke. That's at least 9/10 seriously. Get Asha to work on it and integrate the Ironborn into the North.

Well, the Ironborn are like 20th cousins 13 times removed to the First Men, but still... There are centuries of animosity.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Well, the Ironborn are like 20th cousins 13 times removed to the First Men, but still... There are centuries of animosity.

Difficult? Yes. Impossible? No.

They could bond over whacking southron greenlandish fools and traitors :cool4:

[Strongest Of All Belwas]

Difficult? Yes. Impossible? No.

They could bond over whacking southron greenlandish fools and traitors :cool4:

Asha would only do this if Theon lives. The Northmen want Theon dead for treason, even if Rickon himself sudddenly shows up, proving that Theon didn't kill the Stark boys. He betrayed the Starks, and he'll die. That is the main impasse. That, and, of course, Euron.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Asha got a couple of other reasons beside Theon to work with the Northmen.

Personal reasons:

- she actually needs to survive

- someone needs to help her get in charge of the Iron Islands

- a bit of an understanding with Lady Glover and the She-Bear.

General reasons for the Ironborn:

- shortage of lumber

- shortage of land

- raiding isn't a long-term strategy

- being politically unimportant on their own

Furthermore, a productive coexistence with the North was Asha's goal from the start. Well, now the Iron Islands will have to be the definite junior partner, but that's still better than nothing.

[Boss Wyman Manderly]

Annexing the Iron Islands into the North is not that bad of an idea being since their already making common-cause with Wildlings. I would even throw in The Twins as an act of good faith.

[ejhawman]

I take it that the Ironmen actually own the shores near their islands, and generally control the Neck. The North should have a part in containing them, but so should the Westerlands, which are more proximate and directly threatened, and have more to plunder.

It would have to be a close site, along the Stoney Shore in the North, or on Blazewater Bay. Satlspear has been suggested, if it isn't already owned by the Ironmen. It should be at a defensible point, with a decent cliff. Beyond that we don't know the details of the geography well enough. Martin will choose a place at random as "ideal" if he cares to address the issue.