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wolfmaid7

The Cold, The Wight and The Wight Walker

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I think that's a valid point against the "WW won't harm humans unless threatened" idea. I would add that they don't seem to ever sheathe their ice blades. IIRC the text never mentions them drawing the blade, they just show up blade in hand. This to me would denote the same intention as the bare steel laid upon a lord's lap, or a man who bares his steel in an argument. They are menacing and seem to move in blade in hand for the attack. If they only fight men when attacked, then this is an odd way to go about their business (ie confronting men with your blade in hand). They are not trying to pass these men, but intentionally seem to confront them.

I was thinking the same thing - the WW always (well, OK, 2 in person interactions that compose our sample) have their sword in hand - that in and of itself is threatening. From Royce's encounter:

"Come no farther," the lordling warned. His voice cracked like a boy's. He threw the long sable cloak back over his shoulders, to free his arms for battle, and took his sword in both hands. The wind had stopped. It was very cold.
The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen.

From the NW encounter:

"Get away!' Grenn took a step, thrusting the torch out before him. 'Away, or you burn.' He poked at it with the flames. T
he Other's sword gleamed a faint blue glow. It moved toward Grenn, lightning quick, slashing.
When the ice blue blade brushed the flames, a screech stabbed Sam's ears sharp as a needle.

Also Sam, Grenn and Small Paul were heading south as fast as their frozen feet could take them...they didn't need any pushing and taking away their torch wouldn't help them move any faster.

Tormund doesn't know who (wights or WW) are picking off people at the fringes, but he knows it is happening. And the WW do seem to be associated with the cold, just as the wights are. The WW may be trying to push all people - wildlings and NW south of the Wall to remove them from their 'territory,' but they are not doing it in a benign way IMO.

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I was thinking the same thing - the WW always (well, OK, 2 in person interactions that compose our sample) have their sword in hand - that in and of itself is threatening. From Royce's encounter:

"Come no farther," the lordling warned. His voice cracked like a boy's. He threw the long sable cloak back over his shoulders, to free his arms for battle, and took his sword in both hands. The wind had stopped. It was very cold.
The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen.

From the NW encounter:

"Get away!' Grenn took a step, thrusting the torch out before him. 'Away, or you burn.' He poked at it with the flames. T
he Other's sword gleamed a faint blue glow. It moved toward Grenn, lightning quick, slashing.
When the ice blue blade brushed the flames, a screech stabbed Sam's ears sharp as a needle.

Also Sam, Grenn and Small Paul were heading south as fast as their frozen feet could take them...they didn't need any pushing and taking away their torch wouldn't help them move any faster.

Tormund doesn't know who (wights or WW) are picking off people at the fringes, but he knows it is happening. And the WW do seem to be associated with the cold, just as the wights are. The WW may be trying to push all people - wildlings and NW south of the Wall to remove them from their 'territory,' but they are not doing it in a benign way IMO.

Where else are they suppose to put the blade? They are almost naked,they don't seem to have cloaks or a scabbard on hand to sheathe or un sheathe.They are well within their rights of having sword in hand seeing as it is "their domain" and they are on patrol on their side of the wall per the pact with the First men.They are doing their jobs policing their area.

This is CSI all over and it is actually a great lesson in perception because everyone is to scared or to gung ho to say' If this thing wanted to kill me i'd be dead".

I agree they are associated with the Cold but the relationship is in question.

How else are they suppose to get men to leave the far north ,approach with no sword in hand,that would be an equally short interaction.

Jon had the best idea,"they need to learn about the WWs especially", that is why he succeeded where everyone else failed.He chose to speak and learn about Wun Wun when the giant was viewed as savage by everyone else.He chose to give the Wildlings a chance despite all the stories about them which hardly turned out to be true.The NW is making the same mistakes with the WW.

As for Sam an the others again fear and misunderstanding of the WW led Small Paul to try an axe him,that is understandable wrong,but understandable seeing as people like Old Nan and their tales scared kids crap less from the time they could listen to stories.

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Where else are they suppose to put the blade? SNIP...

IDK but they have armor on, they are not naked. You have an interesting theory, but the facts just do not support the theory that WW's are non-threatening. Perhaps in another encounter you will be proved right, but these two seem pretty cut and dry.

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IDK but they have armor on, they are not naked. You have an interesting theory, but the facts just do not support the theory that WW's are non-threatening. Perhaps in another encounter you will be proved right, but these two seem pretty cut and dry.

What they seem to be is passive aggressive. Why not attack on sight,why appear just to stand in front of members of the watch.We see and know how quick they are, why not attack first if that is your intent? The fact is they have not attacked anyone without provocation. Their behavior is not unlike the warrior clans of Native Americans or tribal peoples in Africa that stand in the bushes with spears.Were these peoples suppose to sheath their spears,are they a threat?

I never said they are non threatening the can be dangerous yes-when attacked.What i did say is that they turn into threats that is the difference.

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What they seem to be is passive aggressive. Why not attack on sight,why appear just to stand in front of members of the watch.We see and know how quick they are, why not attack first if that is your intent? The fact is they have not attacked anyone without provocation. Their behavior is not unlike the warrior clans of Native Americans or tribal peoples in Africa that stand in the bushes with spears.Were these peoples suppose to sheath their spears,are they a threat?

I never said they are non threatening the can be dangerous yes-when attacked.What i did say is that they turn into threats that is the difference.

Yeah... I get what you're trying to say, it just doesn't hold water, at least not without more evidence. The WW's were not standing in the bushes curious about what man is (as a native american would be curious about seafarers). They confront them, not passively, aggressively with weapon in hand. The "cold" part of your theory is very interesting, but doesn't hinge on the WW's being passive, which they are not or they would leave man alone. If as you said they are trying to herd men south, then that is also not a passive stance but aggressive.

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What they seem to be is passive aggressive. Why not attack on sight,why appear just to stand in front of members of the watch.We see and know how quick they are, why not attack first if that is your intent? The fact is they have not attacked anyone without provocation. Their behavior is not unlike the warrior clans of Native Americans or tribal peoples in Africa that stand in the bushes with spears.Were these peoples suppose to sheath their spears,are they a threat?

I never said they are non threatening the can be dangerous yes-when attacked.What i did say is that they turn into threats that is the difference.

I believe it is established that when encountering Waymar, the White Walker halts attack to see the steel:

"The Other halted. Will saw its eyes: blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope."

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Again the point is getting missed,you guys have me going off the topic myself lol. Their aggression is NOT in question as many people can look at that situation and see different things, so because their behavior is subjective it is of no import. From an anthropological point when meeting a culture you don't understand it serves not to jump to conclusion.We assume that because they appeared and just stood around that they were a threat and that's the problem, is the first encounter threat real or misunderstood.

This is where Jon is different from other members of the watch" learn about them" something to that affect he stated illustrating his willingness to not . It is the same reason when a Gorilla charges you don't run,you stand your ground because he is showing a "territorial" display of aggression because you are now in his territory.I view the WWs in the same light,but as i said their aggression is not important.

Their purpose is,which IS my point.Their behavior is that of herders they are pushing men out of the North further South.Yes some NW men got killed,well to be exact (2) as Ser Endrew states herding could be seen as aggressive,but from the point of "you" being the sheep of course.The Shepards on the other hand view is different,i need to move this herd where they need to be.

Why i think that, because "the cold" has come killing some and raising all and it seems attracted to impeding death so its moving in a Southerly direction for the Wall and beyond it.Or they could just be herding men out of their domain per the pact.The Wildling population North was in the thousands so human population in the lands of the Old races were becoming an issue again for them.

Edit: Typos

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Well if you wanna stand your ground against a charging gorilla... Good luck with that! LOL. I mean think about it, if you challenge him to be dominant a physical encounter is bound to happen and I don't know anybody stronger than a gorilla.

The problem with comparing WW's to sheperds, is sheperds don't kill sheep on the spot who stand their ground (OK I know zero about herding sheep but I don't think it's a meet comparison).

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Well if you wanna stand your ground against a charging gorilla... Good luck with that! LOL. I mean think about it, if you challenge him to be dominant a physical encounter is bound to happen and I don't know anybody stronger than a gorilla.

The problem with comparing WW's to sheperds, is sheperds don't kill sheep on the spot who stand their ground (OK I know zero about herding sheep but I don't think it's a meet comparison).

Ser Edrew let's look at this objectively. Ser Royce and Small Paul have been predisposed to see the WWs as deadly threats. That's the reason at the very sight of them both men drew weapons first.

Thus far in conversation Jon has been the only one to entertain reasoning with them and the wights. To which the septon ask if he was crazy .Now I think when it comes to the Wights that's not going to work but with the WWs it might.

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In this theory, Where are the dead being herded to?

It seems that they (humans)are being herded South because the WW themselves are being drawn to the south by "the Cold" .The Cold i'm characterizing as the instrument of a great purge when a population has eclipsed its natural surroundings in the case of man this couldn't be more true.I don't think that the WW have autonomy in this for they are being driven by an innate purpose which is to herd humans out of the North,but the fact that another ability is that they can gather human dead is a plus.

What i see happening is that "the cold" is like the personification of death and it is being drawn to where the most conflict will happen.Lots of people will die due to fighting and disease and "the Cold" will resurrect them and kill the weak.

Now go back 8'000 yrs ago when the population of man reached a zenith,"the Cold" came and thousands upon thousands of people died and were resurrected. It is in that moment the WWs came for the first time,i believe this is how the COTF called them it was the only way to get rid of the dead. If not then we would have heard of " the great stink". But now we have a problem in the Wall it may or may not allow WW's through to move the dead out when "the Cold" descends.

You may ask well why take the dead south too,well they'd cause too much problem being left on their own,and they may use them to fight.

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With all due respect, this doesn't work.

Please go back to AGoT, Bran IV. I broke it down in the current heresy. You don't have to agree on my theory there, but from the quote first came the cold, then the Others. Who were leading hosts of the slain. Leading isn't herding in my book.

The odd fact of Old Nan's story, where the logic behind isn't told, is that the last hero seeks out the CotF to solve the problem, so he must have made a connection between the CotF and the Others.

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It seems that they (humans)are being herded South because the WW themselves are being drawn to the south by "the Cold" .The Cold i'm characterizing as the instrument of a great purge when a population has eclipsed its natural surroundings in the case of man this couldn't be more true.I don't think that the WW have autonomy in this for they are being driven by an innate purpose which is to herd humans out of the North,but the fact that another ability is that they can gather human dead is a plus.

What i see happening is that "the cold" is like the personification of death and it is being drawn to where the most conflict will happen.Lots of people will die due to fighting and disease and "the Cold" will resurrect them and kill the weak.

Now go back 8'000 yrs ago when the population of man reached a zenith,"the Cold" came and thousands upon thousands of people died and were resurrected. It is in that moment the WWs came for the first time,i believe this is how the COTF called them it was the only way to get rid of the dead. If not then we would have heard of " the great stink". But now we have a problem in the Wall it may or may not allow WW's through to move the dead out when "the Cold" descends.

You may ask well why take the dead south too,well they'd cause too much problem being left on their own,and they may use them to fight.

Why only Westeros? Who is fulfilling the dead herding function in the rest of the planet which is significantly larger?

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With all due respect, this doesn't work.

Please go back to AGoT, Bran IV. I broke it down in the current heresy. You don't have to agree on my theory there, but from the quote first came the cold, then the Others. Who were leading hosts of the slain. Leading isn't herding in my book.

The odd fact of Old Nan's story, where the logic behind isn't told, is that the last hero seeks out the CotF to solve the problem, so he must have made a connection between the CotF and the Others.

With all do respect to you and "your book" i suggest you check a dictionary under definition of herding,then you can get the gist of the argument i'm making.In addition,Old Nan's tale is not exactly accurate,she defined the Others as " cold dead things" the Wights as we know are cold and dead,not the WW.Which means there is a strong possibility of mis-identification as who did exactly what during the Long night.And or people including us have gotten accustom lumping the dead and the WWs as "Others".

Oral tradition isn't 100% if we are to take her ( Old Nan's) re-telling as gospel then the Wildlings are blood thirsty savages that rape pillage and lie with Others,common now we have to look at things through an objective lens.The essence of her tale is true,but the specifics of her tale in some cases have proven flawed.

As to the COTF and their connection to the WW's i believe the COTF summon them to take care of the dead that "the cold" raise simple as that.

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Why only Westeros? Who is fulfilling the dead herding function in the rest of the planet which is significantly larger?

Why only Westeros? Who is fulfilling the dead herding function in the rest of the planet which is significantly larger?

A more important question is why is "the Cold" coming back again?

But to answer your question from the story thus far and the connotation of the text,the imbalance has occurred in the land that initially belonged to the Old races,so that's why the crap is taking place here.

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A more important question is why is "the Cold" coming back again?

But to answer your question from the story thus far and the connotation of the text,the imbalance has occurred in the land that initially belonged to the Old races,so that's why the crap is taking place here.

Could it be more simple? There is a land of always winter, the cold is coming from there? Possibly doesn't support your theory though as kind of suggests the cold is predetermined to come from there no matter what man does.

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Could it be more simple? There is a land of always winter, the cold is coming from there? Possibly doesn't support your theory though as kind of suggests the cold is predetermined to come from there no matter what man does.

I have two theories on that and while it can go either way I think the next book would link the break. That is whether or not "the cold" itself came for the first time during the long night or whether it is a natural entity from the north that acts like a purge cyclically. The only difference is that the population prior to the FM wasn't massive so WWs had no problem as there wouldn't be a lot of dead to be cleared . In the Winter the COTF went to ground and animals that were to weak died and were taken. Prior to the long night the land never saw so much death and it never saw such a huge population. So when "the cold" came there was a whole lit more to raise.

Because we have no writings about the land before the FM came its hard to say.

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A more important question is why is "the Cold" coming back again?

But to answer your question from the story thus far and the connotation of the text,the imbalance has occurred in the land that initially belonged to the Old races,so that's why the crap is taking place here.

I have two theories on that and while it can go either way I think the next book would link the break. That is whether or not "the cold" itself came for the first time during the long night or whether it is a natural entity from the north that acts like a purge cyclically. The only difference is that the population prior to the FM wasn't massive so WWs had no problem as there wouldn't be a lot of dead to be cleared . In the Winter the COTF went to ground and animals that were to weak died and were taken. Prior to the long night the land never saw so much death and it never saw such a huge population. So when "the cold" came there was a whole lit more to raise.

Because we have no writings about the land before the FM came its hard to say.

What "purge" though? What "imbalance"? What else is there to suggest that there is an unbalance or there needs to be a purge?

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Long-winded analysis, almost right.

I see the cold as the White Walkers' aura, something they generate. It does not behave intelligently of itself, it is under their control, one of their tools. Dragons do not seem to have the same property for heat. As to how wights rise, it seems to be standard zombie contagion.

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Long-winded analysis, almost right.

I see the cold as the White Walkers' aura, something they generate. It does not behave intelligently of itself, it is under their control, one of their tools. Dragons do not seem to have the same property for heat. As to how wights rise, it seems to be standard zombie contagion.

I can't agree with this because the connotation and denotation of the text does not support " the cold" being the aura of the WW. It is a natural occurrence of the land to which the WW follow like pilot fish . Wheter the WW are thralls to it or wheter there is a parasitic,symbiotic or mutalistic relationship involved is up for debate.

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