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Morienthar

A Comprehensive Analysis and Theory of the Elements

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The Elements we see in the world of Ice and Fire can’t really be easily separated as in our legends, But here is an attempt to do it and co-relate it to the world we see in the books.

Here I will consider

The ASoIaF World (Including the Dunk and Egg Books)

The Ice Dragon Novella (Which is said to be set in the same world)

Fire:

What we Know.

Seen as a consumer

Associated with rage and passion and destruction.

Fire is the element of the Red Faith.

It is also revered by the Valyrians who claim to have control over it.

The biological progenitors are Dragons

Can be used to glimpse the future in slightly uncertain terms.

Speculation

Fire can be used as a medium of communication.

Fire made flesh is completely literal when it comes to Dragons.

(For the above, My theory comes from the Ice Dragon where the older dragons have a burnt hue while even more powerful and older ones turn Black)

Representation of the Element in Religion and Magic

The Red Faith worships fire and light as inseparable from one another, Their magic focuses on Fire as it’s medium.

This obsessive relation to fire and light leads me to speculate that the Red Faith could have roots in Sun Worship.

The Targaryens and Fire

The Targaryens relationship with fire began with the accidental discovery of Dragons in their homeland and caused and fueled it’s raise to power in the region.

The Valyrian magic seems more fueled by blood connections than Fire.

Speculation

Which brings me back to the Dragons who are Fire made Flesh, This assertion is important to understand the control Valyrians had over Dragons, the Dragons were fire, But the fire was their blood and hence susceptible to Blood Magic, This is what gave the Valyrians their legendary control over fire in both their Dragons and the volcanoes.

Ice

What we Know.

Seen as a preserver.

Associated with the north and associated with hardships and hard people.

The Races of men can’t seem to be able to control it.

The Biological progenitors seem to be the Others.

Speculation

Ice cannot be successfully molded by any races of Men.

As the Dragons are Fire made Flesh the Others are Ice made Flesh.

(For the above I again point to the Ice Dragon, Where the girl is said to be touched by winter with a body as cold as ice with a temperament to match, I take this make a leap of faith and say that the Others are people who the Winter never left, unlike Adara.)

Representation of the Element in Religion and Magic

It doesn’t have a definitive representation in Religion as yet, Unless we ever see a religion of the Others.

In Magic however Ice seems to play a role in the Others,Swords and Armor and the Wall which is generally seen as an example for Ice Magic too.

The Starks and Ice.

The Starks (unlike the Targaryens and Fire) do not have a clear cut relation with Ice, apart from being the guardians who once fought it in the Age of heroes.

I will come to the Starks elemental association later while dealing with Earth

Earth

What We Know.

The Old Gods are trees who have a close relationship with the Earthly element.

The Children of the forest as worshippers and followers of the Old Gods have developed a close Relationship with the Earthly element going so far as to not dig the earth to find Iron or other metals to protect themselves.

Speculation

The Earthly element acts a conduit along with the Roots of the wierwoods, to harbor and distribute knowledge of older times.

The Children of the Forest are earth made flesh,I see this as a natural extension to the other elements as each seems to have a magical race attached to it.

Representation of the element in Religion and Magic.

The Old Gods and the worship of the Old Gods is essentially the worship of the Earthly element.

The Wiernet as we call it as I have said in above seems to rely of the Earthly element to work.

The Old Gods themselves are dependant on the earthly element to exist.

The Children of the Forest have in many cases displayed a degree of control over the shaping of the Earth, with the two hammer of the waters.

The First Men and Earth

The customs of the first men seem rooted in the Earthly element.

From Burial customs to the worship of the Old Gods and their legendary building prowess.

The Starks seem to share this connection to the Earth as the other First Men did, the Starks seem to reject water at every turn and the Waters seem to reject them.

Brandon the Burner is the one who almost permanently severed their connections to the world they left behind across the waters when they came to Westeros 10 Millennia ago.

The Starks and First Men’s association with the Elemental Earth began with the Deal with the CotF and reached its peak with the Severing of the connections to the waters by Brandon Stark.

This is a theory/Analysis I have been working on for some time any Comments, Rejections, Pointing and Laughing are welcome.

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snip

Nice job, Morienthar. I like how you presented your theory. I have some issues I would like to present, if you don't have anything against:

1. Our very own ideology is that we have 4 basic elements. I think you can come to that through three manifestations in ASOIAF - ice(First Men), fire(Valyrians) and earth(CotF). There is a reason many of us believe that Jon is union of ice and fire, and that he is balance in form of a hero the world needs. When you unite the three manifestations that truly runs in the Jon's veins, you get 4 elements that makes harmony possible. Ice and fire will eventually provide air and water, plus we have CotF roots that gives us earth. That's why I believe Jon is true hero of the story

2. As for ice, I wouldn't call it only Others' magic. My idea is that your three elements basically represent three nations - First Men, Valyrians, CotF. First Men could also represent ice, and maybe that's the reason of union of CotF and FM against the Others. Perhaps the fact FM could have fought and somewhat repell ice magic isn't far-fetching, when we see how they defended themselves from Others - wall of ice. My idea is that there are something about FM's blood, regardless of their union with CotF magic, that has power of its own.

3. I had a discussion with some members a while ago, about humanity fighting Others on different ways. Either with fire, or with something else. We have to assume that du to troublesome nature of fire, no extreme pole can be regarded as savior of humanity. Fire and ice can both destroy humanity, so the only thing that will effectivly work is some sort of union of two different aspects of magic. So to fight the Others, humanity needs to know both fire and ice magic. Also, knowing both ice and fire magic will make humans far more resillient to the fire element embodied in dragons and R'hllorian darkness.

Again, this analysis is quite interesting, and should be deeply thought of.

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Very nice and comprehensive work, both aesthetically pleasing and seriously grounded in the books.

I take issue with one thing only: The Ice Dragon is not set in the SoIaF world (SSM), no matter what that unfortunate blurb might say. This doesn't affect your analysis (if I understand correctly, you use it more as an inspiration about how GRRM thinks than as hard evidence anyways), and the conclusions you made are still perfectly compatible and sensible for the SoIaF world. I just think it should be mentioned.

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The Water,Ice and the First Men.

I believe the Magic of the First Men was fluid in nature, They were the only ones who could adapt to the changes in their beliefs, They came to the north and became Ice, The change in the people brought a change in their magic which turned to Ice magic and lost the fluidity it once had, The First Men of the North became Ice, While the once who settled in the Iron Islands came to represent the elemental water, They retained the fluidity in both magic and their life styles.

During the Long Night it is possible that the First Men still possessed that Ice Magic in their veins which helped the Children’s earthly element defeat the Ice of the Others, But I think this connection with Ice began to wane for most of history, But is probably not completely gone. Which could be the reason the families with strong First Men backgrounds still feel a strong connection to the wall.

But their current customs and religion is centered around the Earthly element.

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Nice job, Morienthar. I like how you presented your theory. I have some issues I would like to present, if you don't have anything against:

1. Our very own ideology is that we have 4 basic elements. I think you can come to that through three manifestations in ASOIAF - ice(First Men), fire(Valyrians) and earth(CotF). There is a reason many of us believe that Jon is union of ice and fire, and that he is balance in form of a hero the world needs. When you unite the three manifestations that truly runs in the Jon's veins, you get 4 elements that makes harmony possible. Ice and fire will eventually provide air and water, plus we have CotF roots that gives us earth. That's why I believe Jon is true hero of the story

2. As for ice, I wouldn't call it only Others' magic. My idea is that your three elements basically represent three nations - First Men, Valyrians, CotF. First Men could also represent ice, and maybe that's the reason of union of CotF and FM against the Others. Perhaps the fact FM could have fought and somewhat repell ice magic isn't far-fetching, when we see how they defended themselves from Others - wall of ice. My idea is that there are something about FM's blood, regardless of their union with CotF magic, that has power of its own.

3. I had a discussion with some members a while ago, about humanity fighting Others on different ways. Either with fire, or with something else. We have to assume that du to troublesome nature of fire, no extreme pole can be regarded as savior of humanity. Fire and ice can both destroy humanity, so the only thing that will effectivly work is some sort of union of two different aspects of magic. So to fight the Others, humanity needs to know both fire and ice magic. Also, knowing both ice and fire magic will make humans far more resillient to the fire element embodied in dragons and R'hllorian darkness.

Again, this analysis is quite interesting, and should be deeply thought of.

The Water,Ice and the First Men.

I think this answers most of your issues, It is mainly speculation but I think do think of all the Mannish races the First Men have been the most fluid in adapting themselves to their new surroundings and situations and as the magic and people seem to be inseparable I tend to speculate that the magic changes with them.

Very nice and comprehensive work, both aesthetically pleasing and seriously grounded in the books.

I take issue with one thing only: The Ice Dragon is not set in the SoIaF world (SSM), no matter what that unfortunate blurb might say. This doesn't affect your analysis (if I understand correctly, you use it more as an inspiration about how GRRM thinks than as hard evidence anyways), and the conclusions you made are still perfectly compatible and sensible for the SoIaF world. I just think it should be mentioned.

I used it as a standpoint to view the early Ideas of ASoIaF in GRRM's mind,More than an actual reference.

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What about shadowbinders (shadow/light ) and stormsingers (wind) ? :uhoh:

Shadow binding can't be separated from the Red Faith according to me.

As for the Air or Wind element of the Stormsingers we don't know enough about it to even speculate.

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Shadow binding can't be separated from the Red Faith according to me.

Uhm, why ?

Mirri Maz Duur was a shadowbinder too and she wasn't a red priest.

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Uhm, why ?

Mirri Maz Duur was a shadowbinder too and she wasn't a red priest.

But she learnt the art in Asshai,The birth place of the Red Faith by all the information we have and it fits really.

The Shadows and Lights are not really opposites in this case,For a shadow to exist we need light.

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But she learnt the art in Asshai,The birth place of the Red Faith by all the information we have and it fits really.

The Shadows and Lights are not really opposites in this case,For a shadow to exist we need light.

But just because it's originate from Asshai, that doesn't mean that they're one and same.

Anyways :dunno:

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edited for length

The First Men and Earth

The customs of the first men seem rooted in the Earthly element.

From Burial customs to the worship of the Old Gods and their legendary building prowess.

The Starks seem to share this connection to the Earth as the other First Men did, the Starks seem to reject water at every turn and the Waters seem to reject them.

Brandon the Burner is the one who almost permanently severed their connections to the world they left behind across the waters when they came to Westeros 10 Millennia ago.

The Starks and First Men’s association with the Elemental Earth began with the Deal with the CotF and reached its peak with the Severing of the connections to the waters by Brandon Stark.

This is a theory/Analysis I have been working on for some time any Comments, Rejections, Pointing and Laughing are welcome.

Nicely analyzed. I just wish to point out that Arya is connected to water. A thread that details Arya;'s connection to the water motif also follows the Stark association with the elements of nature and much more. Regardless, your hard work is evident in your organized, comprehensive interpretation. Awesome job!

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Nicely analyzed. I just wish to point out that Arya is connected to water. A thread that details Arya;'s connection to the water motif also follows the Stark association with the elements of nature and much more. Regardless, your hard work is evident in your organized, comprehensive interpretation. Awesome job!

Thank You...

I have made a post pointing out the fluidity of the First Men in general,It's the 5th post on the thread.

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I take issue with one thing only: The Ice Dragon is not set in the SoIaF world (SSM), no matter what that unfortunate blurb might say. This doesn't affect your analysis (if I understand correctly, you use it more as an inspiration about how GRRM thinks than as hard evidence anyways), and the conclusions you made are still perfectly compatible and sensible for the SoIaF world. I just think it should be mentioned.

I did a comparison of the Ice Dragon and aSoIaF, and while its clear in some parts that its completely separate, other parts match up pretty well.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/88169-reconciling-grrms-the-ice-dragon-as-canon/

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Nice job Morienthar.

What about shadowbinders (shadow/light ) and stormsingers (wind) ? :uhoh:

It seems likely that Stormsinger may have something to do with the Storm God, obviously there is very little information to go on but this could be the beginnings of a theory on the wind element. We will have to wait to see if GRRM writes any more on this subject.

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Nice job Morienthar.

It seems likely that Stormsinger may have something to do with the Storm God, obviously there is very little information to go on but this could be the beginnings of a theory on the wind element. We will have to wait to see if GRRM writes any more on this subject.

Thank You...

There's some speculation that the Storm God and Drowned God were part of the original First Men pantheon.I hope George writes more on it in the World book.

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It seems to me that humans initially had a much closer bond with fire than any other. The first men arrived in Westeros so it is fair to assume they originally came from Essos. As did the Andals. THe only races present in Westeros at the time were the Children of the Forest and the Giants, who both seem to have a close relationship with the Earth. Then you have the Others, who are close to the element of ice. Since those times, Men have divided much more. The Valyrians remained rooted in fire, but the Starks embraced the Earth element, growing closer to the Old Gods. THey also embraced Ice to a degree, living with it, keeping it at bay. The Ironborn embraced Water or the sea as their element. In Essos, Fire still has the greatest presence and Rh'llor is greatly honoured. Maybe the most powerful elements in the Asoiaf world are embodied by abstract entities, e.g. Rh'llor = fire, The Old Gods = Earth etc.

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It seems to me that humans initially had a much closer bond with fire than any other. The first men arrived in Westeros so it is fair to assume they originally came from Essos. As did the Andals. THe only races present in Westeros at the time were the Children of the Forest and the Giants, who both seem to have a close relationship with the Earth. Then you have the Others, who are close to the element of ice. Since those times, Men have divided much more. The Valyrians remained rooted in fire, but the Starks embraced the Earth element, growing closer to the Old Gods. THey also embraced Ice to a degree, living with it, keeping it at bay. The Ironborn embraced Water or the sea as their element. In Essos, Fire still has the greatest presence and Rh'llor is greatly honoured. Maybe the most powerful elements in the Asoiaf world are embodied by abstract entities, e.g. Rh'llor = fire, The Old Gods = Earth etc.

This was essentially my first premise for this thread,Which I first posted as a trail thread,It wasn't completely fleshed out then though.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/92330-icefireearthair/

But,As I have said in my posts above I changed my opinion slightly,Where the other races of Men aren't as fluid in their changes as the First Men are.

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This was essentially my first premise for this thread,Which I first posted as a trail thread,It wasn't completely fleshed out then though.

http://asoiaf.wester...cefireearthair/

But,As I have said in my posts above I changed my opinion slightly,Where the other races of Men aren't as fluid in their changes as the First Men are.

I think the First Men probably changed because the Children displayed clear magical power, which appeared to stem from their Old Gods. A religious belief that displays clear evidence of magical power would be very convincing.

Similar to those who are now turning to Rh'llor, Stannis and his men ect. They observed a display of magical power, which gave substance to the religion.

The Seven have never displayed these abilities as far as we know, but the Faith of the Seven was spread by war and conquest, rather than natural conversion, and it proved very successful. It also seems like most people are not particularly devout to the Seven. People seem to be just as whorey and violent as everywhere else, despite their faith telling them not to.

The Drowned God seems to me to be just an excuse for the Iron Born to go raiding.

The Many Faced God has displayed a type of magic, and it seems to have Arya at least some way convinced, along with the other Faceless Men.

We don't know the Gods of Valyria, but its possible that their magic was in some way connected to them, which would mean their faith had substance. Much of that substance evaporated after the Doom and much of their magic was lost.

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