Stannis winning by himself WF may change his relationship with melisandre?

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Its the old Stan the one who is facing the boltons, no witchs help behind. He even has an army full of unfaithfuls. Followers of the old gods. praying to the old gods.

Would a Victory make him more independent of melissandre? like the stannis who send her to dragonstone before bwater? More confidence in himself, and his instincts, a not so much a follower of the rhlorr agenda? Would it open his head and make him more tolerant to other religions?

We are starting to see some of this in my opinion with the not burning policy and even more...

[Olphumphus]

Id image sooner or later he will have no need for the lord of light. We know that Theon is about to be sacrificed by a weirwood tree, this is where Bran will interact with them and Stannis thinking its the old gods will begin to doubt LOL even more.

A victory without Melisandre's help would really change him as well this independence boost will hopefully bring out a new and improved Mannis.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Stannis will eventually stick fake Lightbringer through the red woman's heart...mark my words! :devil:

[Mad Monkey]

Stannis will eventually stick fake Lightbringer through the red woman's heart...mark my words! :devil:

"A man will weep. A man will lose his only friend."

I don't see Stannis being faithless like that. If you kill someone who is loyal to you simply because you don't need them any more, why would anyone be loyal to you ever again? Stannis didn't kill Salladhor Saan for leaving him, or Davos for his trick with Edric Motherf****ing Storm, I can't see him putting Melisandre to death for her crime of... um... not being present when he won a battle?? Huh?

[BaseBornBastard]

Stannis' belief in being AAR goes hand in hand with his faith in Mel and the Red God. I don't see him turning his back on her any time soon.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Stannis' belief in being AAR goes hand in hand with his faith in Mel and the Red God. I don't see him turning his back on her any time soon.

Didnt you see some doubts in him before black water battle?

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

"A man will weep. A man will lose his only friend."

I don't see Stannis being faithless like that. If you kill someone who is loyal to you simply because you don't need them any more, why would anyone be loyal to you ever again? Stannis didn't kill Salladhor Saan for leaving him, or Davos for his trick with Edric Motherf****ing Storm, I can't see him putting Melisandre to death for her crime of... um... not being present when he won a battle?? Huh?

Well, I never stated that Stannis would kill Mel because she wasn't present when he won a battle, or because he doesn't need her anymore...only that he will eventually kill her.

I definitely see Stannis being faithless like that, since he had abandoned all gods before Mel was able to convince him of the "power" of her god; a god that he still doubts at times. If he is given a reason to doubt her, it will take him down a road where he will begin to question everything related to her.

I can see Stannis killing her once he discovers that she is a user, a fake, and a liar. She will reveal her true nature, and she will betray Stannis. We all know how Stannis handles true betrayal.

1. Salladhor Saan was a hired sword that hadn't received payment, so he left. There was no dishonor/betrayal in that course of action, since Stannis did not uphold his part of the bargain.

2. Davos removed a decision that was causing Stannis to have a serious internal battle with himself, plus Stannis knew that Davos did it as someone that cared from him and wanted to help him make the right decisions.

Mel has nothing to save her from Stannis' wrath.

[Mad Monkey]

I can see Stannis killing her once he discovers that she is a user, a fake, and a liar. She will reveal her true nature, and she will betray Stannis. We all know how Stannis handles true betrayal.

I definitely agree that he'll kill Melisandre if he thinks she's betraying him, but so far there is nothing in the story that suggests that she's anything other than simply mistaken -- the way she was mistaken about Alys Karstark or about Jeyne Poole. R'hllor's visions are very vague and hard to interpret; Melisandre could have just gotten the wrong guy, and if that's the case it's hardly fair to put her to death for treason.

Your theory makes sense, don't get me wrong, but I think at this point in the story it's just as likely that Melisandre is merely mistaken rather than deliberately defrauding Stannis.

Or, Hell, maybe she's right and Stannis gets to die in service of the realm, fighting against the Others. I see this as most likely; not necessarily fighting hand-to-hand against the Others, but I'm not sure that he will ever return South again. He's wrapped up in Roose and the plot beyond the Wall.

[Jon of the Dead]

I don't think Stannis and Mel will have the same relationship after the battle of WF. I don't even think they will see each other again, and if they do, Stannis will put a sword through her heart for trying or succeding to sacrifice Shireen.

As a side note, I think the Ironborn will play some part in helping Stannis to defeat the Boltons, so that would be Stannis cooperating with two groups who worship different gods. Yes, I think our Stannis is definetely growing more tolerant.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest "faithless" in a religious sense, but faithless in the sense of "betraying a servant and ally". Stannis is his own man, he relies on R'hllor to the extent that it gives him power, but if he gives up on R'hllor that doesn't mean that he'll purge his ranks of R'hllor's believers, just as like he didn't get rid of the non-R'hllor believers before.

I see your point, but in my view Stannis wouldn't be betraying a servant or an ally if he kills Mel because she would have betrayed him. I only see Stannis killing Mel if he feels that she has betrayed him, not because he simply loses faith in R'hllor. He would view it as killing a traitor, and we know how he feels about traitors.

I also didn't say anything about Stannis purging his ranks of R'hllor believers.

There are a lot of assumptions here, mostly that Melisandre is fake/a liar rather than simply deluded.

Mel knowingly uses "tricks" to appear to have powers, so she is a fake. She lied to Stannis about the glamour used on Mance, so she is a liar. As far as her religious beliefs, she is deluded.

Melisandre can be wrong.

I fully agree, since it has been proven in the text.

Stannis doesn't strike me as the kind of person who betrays and murders his advisers just because they make mistakes; he is his own man and makes is own decisions. He doesn't hide behind his advisers and he doesn't blame them for his own policies the way people blame Cersei, Tyrion, and Varys for Joffrey's misrule. Stannis listens to Mel, Davos, Axell, etc. but he takes responsibility for what he does.

I fully agree, but...

Stannis strikes me as the kind of person that punishes his advisers for what he deems as betrayal. I feel that Mel's actions go beyond simple mistakes. She has her own agenda, and has knowingly mislead and lied to Stannis to complete her own agenda. Stannis is her puppet, and soon he will cut the strings.

I definitely agree that he'll kill Melisandre if he thinks she's betraying him, but so far there is nothing in the story that suggests that she's anything other than simply mistaken -- the way she was mistaken about Alys Karstark or about Jeyne Poole. R'hllor's visions are very vague and hard to interpret; Melisandre could have just gotten the wrong guy, and if that's the case it's hardly fair to put her to death for treason.

Your theory makes sense, don't get me wrong, but I think at this point in the story it's just as likely that Melisandre is merely mistaken rather than deliberately defrauding Stannis.

On this point, we must agree to disagree.

I agree that she simply picked the wrong guy, but that is not what I view as her betrayal to Stannis. The lies and tricks are what I view as betrayal, and I believe her betrayals will come to light.

[Ser Pigeon Pie]

I definitely think their relationship will change (especially if he returns to find a resurrected Jon Snow named as AAR) but I don't believe he will kill her. If anything he will probably garner more support by not being tied down to a specific religion that is still quite scarce within Westeros.

I became a big fan of Melisandre after aSoS as I could always see the Wall as her true calling, the "song" of ice and fire. I think she still has a pretty big part to play in the next two books so I don't see Stannis as her murderer, the only person I see responsible for that will be Jon Snow!

Stannis would have to go against everything he has stood for thus far, and I don't really see the point if that happening. He will probably just abandon the Wall and take up residence in WF anyway.

As a side note, I think the Ironborn will play some part in helping Stannis to defeat the Boltons, so that would be Stannis cooperating with two groups who worship different gods.

I totally agree with you there! It seems Stannis' and the young Greyjoys' arcs are pretty much gonna be in sync, at least for one more book

[Gannicus]

The only way Stannis would kill Mel is if she sacrificed Shireen to the R'hllor.

He is becoming less dependent on her. If he can win the batle of Winterfell without her, we'll see Stannis rely on her magic and advice less.

[Boarsbane Baratheon]

I think she will drop him before he drops her. Shell get on Jons D and Stannis will be like alright whatever and continue on his quest. I only say this cause a lot of his men are loyal to her religion and he still paces back and forth in front of fires without her. He wants to use what her religion brings to the fullest.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

I think she will drop him before he drops her. Shell get on Jons D and Stannis will be like alright whatever and continue on his quest. I only say this cause a lot of his men are loyal to her religion and he still paces back and forth in front of fires without her. He wants to use what her religion brings to the fullest.

By now he has a 5000 army. 3500 are followers of the old gods. Probably in the 1500 southeners there are some hundred followers of the seven.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

And as long as he keeps winning his army would became even less and less rhlorrian.