Why is letting the free folk south now a good idea?

[King Tam Stark]

Because as Jon said, we didn't build a 700 ft wall to keep Wildlings out. (paraphrased.)

Because Jon realises that wildlings aren't inherently different from those that live in the realm

so the threat wasn't as great as was perceived for thousands of years???

[The Don Dadda]

so the threat wasn't as great as was perceived for thousands of years???

Well there was a real threat and a real animosity between the realm and the wildlings but it isn't something that was irresolvable. It was just a conflict between humans like any other. The Brackens and Blackwoods are constantly feuding, but there is no suggestion that some kind of barrier needs to be erected between them.

[Starfell]

fair enough its just my opinion that people don't change it's like you get a person who constantly changes location to escape their problems without realizing they are the problem be it a bad drink, drugs or gambling habit or whatever

being treated differently will obviously help but just living further south won't and neither will associating with the same people

I don't think it's fair to compare a single person to a large group, civilisations are, in part, shaped by their physical environment, living in territory that produces a food surplus, for example, removes the motive for raiding. Moreover, living in the 7K means submitting to at least some of their rules, and interacting peacefully with their inhabitants, both of which will leave their mark.

so the threat wasn't as great as was perceived for thousands of years???

They weren't perceived as that big a threat; a threat, yes, something that the whole of Westeros should be worried about, I don't think so. In AGoT Ned knows about Mance and his response is that he might have to ride North of the Wall and deal with him. There's no doubt in his mind that whatever the wildlings can muster (yes, he doesn't know about Mance's full strength, but seeing as Stannis and the Watch manage to smash his army with a fraction of Winterfell's strength, I doubt Ned would do much worse), it's no match for what the North can bring to bear against them, and that's just one of the Westerosi Kingdoms, and one of the more manpower-poor ones at that, and every time before, they've either been broken on the Wall, or by Winterfell. I doubt anybody thought that the wildling threat justified something on the scale of the Wall, at least not at the time of ASoIaF, but the Wall is useful as a prison camp and as far as the Westerosi are concerned what else could it for but keeping the wildlings out? Snarks and gumpkins? Others? They're all just stories to scare children

[King Tam Stark]

I don't think it's fair to compare a single person to a large group, civilisations are, in part, shaped by their physical environment, living in territory that produces a food surplus, for example, removes the motive for raiding. Moreover, living in the 7K means submitting to at least some of their rules, and interacting peacefully with their inhabitants, both of which will leave their mark.

They weren't perceived as that big a threat; a threat, yes, something that the whole of Westeros should be worried about, I don't think so. In AGoT Ned knows about Mance and his response is that he might have to ride North of the Wall and deal with him. There's no doubt in his mind that whatever the wildlings can muster, it's no match for what the North can bring to bear against them, and that's just one of the Westerosi Kingdoms, and one of the more manpower-poor ones at that, and every time before, they've either been broken on the Wall, or by Winterfell. I doubt anybody thought that the wildling threat justified something on the scale of the Wall, at least not at the time of ASoIaF, but the Wall is useful as a prison camp and as far as the Westerosi are concerned what else could it for but keeping the wildlings out? Snarks and gumpkins? Others? They're all just stories to scare children

so why the outrage at letting them south of the wall? until recent events the NW had evolved to be entirely about keeping the wildings out, bit much if they didn't pose a big threat

[LadyMary]

I get that but the wildings where a major threat to westeros a short time ago and that was in small raiding party's who had made it over the wall now you have thousands of them free to do as they please, I remember its said its better than them returning as wights but why not just kill them rather than have them cause a lot of trouble to the north?

Its a nice idea to make friends with them but the clash of cultures is going to make that difficult the reaction of the NW will be the same throughout westeros and could cause a lot of trouble

so the threat wasn't as great as was perceived for thousands of years???

The free folk were never a major threat. They were always a relatively minor irritant for the realm, although a major irritant for the North. The Wall wasn't built to keep them out anyway. It was built to keep the Others out and the Free Folk ended up on the wrong side after that. At various times in history, the Nights Watch actually joined forces with the Free Folk to deal with a greater threat (the Night King).

Jon Snow has the benefit of having lived among the Free Folk for a period of time, so he got to understand how they think and what they are trying to achieve. He knows that Mance is trying to move his people South to save them from a fate worse than death, not so they can raid the the farms and keeps South of the Wall. Having 100, 000 Free Folk integrated into the Gift is a management and logistics problem, but having 100,000 wights attacking from the sea on the East or the bay at the West would be a nightmare.

ETA: check the history and legends videos on the DVD box sets for season 2 if you get a chance. There's some interesting stuff about the history of Westeros, including the building of the Wall, the interactions between the First Men and the CotF and relationships between those south of the Wall and the Free Folk north of the Wall.

[TheSmilingKnight11]

Most people think they are savages a who will not uphold the kings law. But the people of westeros might want those savages when the others invade.

[King Tam Stark]

The free folk were never a major threat. They were always a relatively minor irritant for the realm, although a major irritant for the North. The Wall wasn't built to keep them out anyway. It was built to keep the Others out and the Free Folk ended up on the wrong side after that. At various times in history, the Nights Watch actually joined forces with the Free Folk to deal with a greater threat (the Night King).

Jon Snow has the benefit of having lived among the Free Folk for a period of time, so he got to understand how they think and what they are trying to achieve. He knows that Mance is trying to move his people South to save them from a fate worse than death, not so they can raid the the farms and keeps South of the Wall. Having 100, 000 Free Folk integrated into the Gift is a management and logistics problem, but having 100,000 wights attacking from the sea on the East or the bay at the West would be a nightmare.

ETA: check the history and legends videos on the DVD box sets for season 2 if you get a chance. There's some interesting stuff about the history of Westeros, including the building of the Wall, the interactions between the First Men and the CotF and relationships between those south of the Wall and the Free Folk north of the Wall.

I get the reasoning behind not handing the others 100,000 wildings to turn in to wights and I have a basic knowledge of the wall being built to keep the others out that's why I said the NW had evolved (in its purpose) but if the wildings are seen as an irritant why such outrage at letting them through? The NW brothers killed there own LC partly because of the outrage it caused.

[mindchap]

Its there biggest weakness but deeply ingrained in there culture, if they where well organised they wouldn't be free and now by entering south of the wall they aren't as free and will have rules and laws to abide by and must adapt and become kneelers, I'm fairly certain it's not something they are capable of doing

What makes you think Mance has more to with the others than we know?

Just his overall story about the horn, he's either lying or he is not very bright and since he does seem fairly intelligent then I have to go with lying.

[LadyMary]

I get the reasoning behind not handing the others 100,000 wildings to turn in to wights and I have a basic knowledge of the wall being built to keep the others out that's why I said the NW had evolved (in its purpose) but if the wildings are seen as an irritant why such outrage at letting them through? The NW brothers killed there own LC partly because of the outrage it caused.

Because... history, tradition, etc. The Nights Watch hasn't seen an Other is thousands of years and their reason to be is to protect the realm from the only "threat" that exists, the Wildlings. Over the years, enemies are villified, their tales of their threat level elevated in entreaties to the Crown in order to justify the infusion of goods and gold to keep the Nights Watch going.

The fact remains that while the wildlings are viewed as a minor irritant, the Wall has become a penal colony for the Seven Kingdoms' criminals and political outlaws, which is why its numbers are dwindling and all but the Northern Lords dismiss their needs.

The Nights Watch are outraged by it because some of them have lost brothers in battle with the Free Folk. They have been trained to see the wildlings as the enemy. It's hard to learn to think differently when you've always been told to fight them rather than save them.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I get the reasoning behind not handing the others 100,000 wildings to turn in to wights and I have a basic knowledge of the wall being built to keep the others out that's why I said the NW had evolved (in its purpose) but if the wildings are seen as an irritant why such outrage at letting them through? The NW brothers killed there own LC partly because of the outrage it caused.

Some brothers show outrage. A very limited some. Mostly consisting of people who either got their ass handed to them by the Wildlings (Bowen Marsh) in their only interaction ever, or lost their lovers to the Wildlings (Hairy Hal's lover, currently don't get the name).

Almost every single ranger on the other hand is either in favor of admitting the Wildlings to the realm or at least shows grudging support. They are the people that have met Wildlings before and know them to be only humans.

[King Tam Stark]

Because... history, tradition, etc. The Nights Watch hasn't seen an Other is thousands of years and their reason to be is to protect the realm from the only "threat" that exists, the Wildlings. Over the years, enemies are villified, their tales of their threat level elevated in entreaties to the Crown in order to justify the infusion of goods and gold to keep the Nights Watch going.

The fact remains that while the wildlings are viewed as a minor irritant, the Wall has become a penal colony for the Seven Kingdoms' criminals and political outlaws, which is why its numbers are dwindling and all but the Northern Lords dismiss their needs.

The Nights Watch are outraged by it because some of them have lost brothers in battle with the Free Folk. They have been trained to see the wildlings as the enemy. It's hard to learn to think differently when you've always been told to fight them rather than save them.

killing brothers and battles is more than a minor irritant though, will having them south of the wall stop that? both of them will have to change how they view each other or the NW could be facing an enemy from the south and an enemy from the north, remember most people don't act sensibly in westeros, even when all of mankind is at stake

[LadyMary]

killing brothers and battles is more than a minor irritant though, will having them south of the wall stop that? both of them will have to change how they view each other or the NW could be facing an enemy from the south and an enemy from the north, remember most people don't act sensibly in westeros, even when all of mankind is at stake

The rangers of the NW go after Wildlings that commit crimes in raiding south of the Wall and kill and are killed by Wildlings north of the Wall. But in the big picture - the security of the realm, the Wildlings pose a minor irritant when compared to the Lords south of the Wall who fight each other for power, slaughter each others' small folk, burn their fields and wage major battles that cause thousands of deaths in a single day - all of which destabilizes the entire Kingdom.

Most of the Wildlings attacks are small scale, until Mance gets them organized. But Mance gets them organized to save them from the REAL threat to the realm which no one south of the Wall even believes is real. By surrendering to the NW, the Wildlings have sacrificed their autonomy for safety because they know that the "Southerners" are not the real enemy or threat. It just takes a while for a small group of disgruntled NW to get beyond their prejudices and see that they and the Free Folk have a common enemy that they should fight together for the sake of the humankind.

[King Tam Stark]

The rangers of the NW go after Wildlings that commit crimes in raiding south of the Wall and kill and are killed by Wildlings north of the Wall. But in the big picture - the security of the realm, the Wildlings pose a minor irritant when compared to the Lords south of the Wall who fight each other for power, slaughter each others' small folk, burn their fields and wage major battles that cause thousands of deaths in a single day - all of which destabilizes the entire Kingdom.

Most of the Wildlings attacks are small scale, until Mance gets them organized. But Mance gets them organized to save them from the REAL threat to the realm which no one south of the Wall even believes is real. By surrendering to the NW, the Wildlings have sacrificed their autonomy for safety because they know that the "Southerners" are not the real enemy or threat. It just takes a while for a small group of disgruntled NW to get beyond their prejudices and see that they and the Free Folk have a common enemy that they should fight together for the sake of the humankind.

I just hope it does pan out as nice as this and people on both sides can get over there prejudices, remember there is already a group of wildings showing disharmony when Jon was delivering food to moles town and a lot of them openly flaunting they still follow the old gods by carving faces in the trees, if not the previously small attacks would be nothing compared to the 100,000 there now

The full realm should be joining together but apart from the NW and the wildings the rest aren't they are too busy playing the got

Does anybody know if giants can be wights?

[Morienthar]

Because there's something worse coming and because the NW swore to protect the realms of men in general and Wildlings are men.

Does anybody know if giants can be wights?

I don't see why not.

They seem to be able to raise Horses and Bears too.

[LadyMary]

I just hope it does pan out as nice as this and people on both sides can get over there prejudices, remember there is already a group of wildings showing disharmony when Jon was delivering food to moles town and a lot of them openly flaunting they still follow the old gods by carving faces in the trees, if not the previously small attacks would be nothing compared to the 100,000 there now

The full realm should be joining together but apart from the NW and the wildings the rest aren't they are too busy playing the got

Does anybody know if giants can be wights?

I don't think the NW care if the Wildlings carve faces in the trees, least of all Jon Snow who also prays to the Old Gods. Forsaking the old gods was Stannis's demand - and really, Melisandre's, in return for safe passage through the Wall along with paying tribute and giving up hostages.

Starvation and desperation can make people commit crimes to survive, so I wouldn't expect perfect harmony with the Wildlings south of the Wall but still better to deal with living people who want to go on living than an army of zombie slaves and their Ice demon masters.

[Vuron]

After thousands of years of keeping the wildings out what's changed?

The NW have recognised the real threat is from the others which is sensible but have the reasons they have fought the wildings been worked out or have Jon and Stannis exposed Westeros/The North badly?

Can they really be trusted or should the NW have just left them to there fate? Is thousands of wildings causing havoc worse than the threat of them returning as wights and and can giants return as wights?

Unfortunately, the NW hasn't realized that the Others are the real threat. It appears that many of the current NW want to hold onto the belief that the wildlings are the threat and this is one of the main reasons that they have rebelled against their current LC. Although I'm not a huge fan of Jon, he is one of the few that recognizes the real threat.

The incorrect belief that the wildlings are the main threat is simple conditioning. The others haven't been a threat in so long that the NW needed an enemy to fight, so it became the wildlings. Unfortunately for the wildlings, they are just descendants or Northerners that just happened to be cut off when the wall was erected.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Unfortunately, the NW hasn't realized that the Others are the real threat. It appears that many a vocal minority of the current NW want to hold onto the belief that the wildlings are the threat and this is one of the main reasons that they have rebelled against their current LC. Although I'm not a huge fan of Jon, he is one of the few that recognizes the real threat.

Fixed.

The rangers sing a different song, so does the younger generation. A lot of others as well. And their number grows during Dance.

[The Wolves]

After thousands of years of keeping the wildings out what's changed?

The NW have recognised the real threat is from the others which is sensible but have the reasons they have fought the wildings been worked out or have Jon and Stannis exposed Westeros/The North badly?

Can they really be trusted or should the NW have just left them to there fate? Is thousands of wildings causing havoc worse than the threat of them returning as wights and and can giants return as wights?

Well they know more about the Others than all of Westeros, they remember things the North and Winterfell have forgotten.

If they die out in the harsh winter they will rise to be part of the Others' army and the Night's Watch doesn't need more dead things to fight.

Also I think it was only agreed that the Wildlings will only stay on the gift throughout winter to help fight and when spring comes if they want they can leave

[WildBlood]

If they(Jon) don't let the Wildlings cross the wall, the Others will kill them and add 100 thousand wildling to their wight army.

[Light a wight tonight]

, I remember its said its better than them returning as wights but why not just kill them rather than have them cause a lot of trouble to the north?

Aha! The Final Solution to the Wildling problem.