Why do people like Stannis?

[Lord Ronin]

He did manage to hold Storm's End. He's nothing if not determined and has enormous steadfastness.

Totally agree

[tormund's beard]

My, you sound so angry.

really ? maybe you're very sensitive...

[Chaircat Meow]

My, you sound so angry.

Well, I'm not.

I do agree about the overblown opinion of Stannis some people have. I do genuinely think saying, 'superfan agrees with me so I'm probably right,' is not the way to go, though.

edit: hell, I only said Bullshit ...

[Lord Ronin]

You forgot the Battle of Fair Isle where he smashed the iron fleet by luring it into a trap.

I agree he is not brilliant, just good.

I agree...and I did forget fair isle....my comment was solely pointed at those who call him "brilliant ",his mind isn't "agile " enough to be brilliant, but his will is incredible

[A Man Has Said]

I really like Ran's videos but using them to back up your opinions of the characters is total Bullshit. It is not like this is fact checking where something is either right or wrong. It is perfectly possible his views differ from the author's, and even if they don't, we don't rely on GrrM to tell us what to think about his characters beyond what he puts in the novels, or through the factual answers he gives through SSM. You make up your own mind and if you discuss it on the forums you argue for it.

(obviously I am not a stanstan either)

I think the point being made is that Ran's point of view is not tainted by his having arrived at it as a means of paying his dues to get into some juvenile club, but based on a very careful and thorough reading of the character as written, not as imagined. The groupthink element is making quite a few people think that they're making valid arguments when they're not - if you have a dozen people clamoring to pat you on the back for some idiocy, somehow it doesn't look so idiotic. I addressed that phenomenon (with a linked video describing it) in an earlier comment on this thread.

When you get all these weak arguments being perpetuated because 'the club' supports them, it really brings the quality of the exchange down dramatically, IMO.

ETA: I guess I'm saying that for me the opinion of one superfan is of more weight than that of a dozen or more people trying to outdo one another in how far they'll go to support what is sometimes unsupportable.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

really ? maybe you're very sensitive...

Hardly but I'm not the one who started cursing.

I do agree about the overblown opinion of Stannis some people have. I do genuinely think saying, 'superfan agrees with me so I'm probably right,' is not the way to go, though.

edit: hell, I only said Bullshit ...

I never implied I was right only that I share the same opinion as Ran about the over zealousness. Also, I don't know that I'd call him superfan.

[tormund's beard]

the anti-stan brigade is just sad, stannis is a grey well written character with an interesting character arc and inner monologue as a result people like him, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

When you get all these weak arguments being perpetuated because 'the club' supports them, it really brings the quality of the exchange down dramatically, IMO.

I agree, it's very hard to counter comments like this

Stannis is awesome people like awesomeness.

Stannis is a badass people like/respect badassery.

Stannis has Davos, davos is awesome and a badass and he was a smuggler which is just a below pirate in the chart of water-based badassery coolness.

Or just listing specific quotes over and over again. But that seems to be the nature of discussing Stannis here. Thread is opened and Stanstans arrive and take over. Which is what the op was asking about if I've read it correctly.

[tormund's beard]

I agree, it's very hard to counter comments like this

Or just listing specific quotes over and over again. But that seems to be the nature of discussing Stannis here. Thread is opened and Stanstans arrive and take over. Which is what the op was asking about if I've read it correctly.

the thread gets de-railed because there are 10000000 similar if not identical threads discusing the topic in a detailed fashion, after the 14 th thread one start posting book-quotes or reposting from older stannis' threads or just posting semi-funny things before the ax drops at page 20.

[Harold II]

He was about to win at the Blackwater until he was surprised by a much larger enemy army, wait until TWoW Stannis is going to have the Boltons for breakfast, Stannis held out at the age of 17 for a year and his garrison didn't mutiny. Stannis was outnumbered 20 to 1 at the Wall. You're also forgetting that he smashed the Iron Fleet at Fair Isle, beating the Ironborn when they were in their element.

I think there's a distinction here though. "Brilliant tactician" implies daring strategy, cleaver ploys that outwit an opponent. I think of Robb's manoeuvres to relieve Riverrun, take lands in Westerlands et al.

Stannis is stubborn, determined, willful, hard, disciplined, dutiful. He will break before he bends. That is what has got him through the trials you outlined - shear bloody minded determination to prevail, regardless of cost.

Brilliant military intellect? There isn't really any evidence of that in the text. He is of average intelligence, and been lucky on occasion (no Davos at Storms End? How does he beat Renly without Mel? Element of surprise against the wildlings, who were not expecting any resistance other than the depleted watch?)

He may well destroy the Boltons, but that victory will probably be partly Manderlay, part Bolton stupidity.

----------------

As to why people like Stannis, I think its because he is determined to follow a specific code of values regardless of cost. He is a simple (not scheming), driven individual. Scheming in the Stannis camp is usually done by others around him. The crown is his by rights, justice is his to administer, fealty owed to him. Blunt, simple, determined.

He isn't a complex shade of grey like Jamie and many other characters. Stannis is what he is.

[King Stannis]

I think the point being made is that Ran's point of view is not tainted by his having arrived at it as a means of paying his dues to get into some juvenile club, but based on a very careful and thorough reading of the character as written, not as imagined. The groupthink element is making quite a few people think that they're making valid arguments when they're not - if you have a dozen people clamoring to pat you on the back for some idiocy, somehow it doesn't look so idiotic. I addressed that phenomenon (with a linked video describing it) in an earlier comment on this thread.

When you get all these weak arguments being perpetuated because 'the club' supports them, it really brings the quality of the exchange down dramatically, IMO.

ETA: I guess I'm saying that for me the opinion of one superfan is of more weight than that of a dozen or more people trying to outdo one another in how far they'll go to support what is sometimes unsupportable.

None of us loved Stannis before coming here of course...

And the way GRRM writes leaves things to interpretation in regards to characters. Not one thing is more correct than another when judging a character, unless absolutely falsehoods are stated(like in this thread, Stannis was gungho happy about wanting to burn Edric Storm).

There has sometimes been a fair amount of debate on Jaime's merits and/or lack thereof, and I don't see people accusing anyone of "LOL GROUPTHINK" in those.

[Lord Ronin]

I think there's a distinction here though. "Brilliant tactician" implies daring strategy, cleaver ploys that outwit an opponent. I think of Robb's manoeuvres to relieve Riverrun, take lands in Westerlands et al.

Stannis is stubborn, determined, willful, hard, disciplined, dutiful. He will break before he bends. That is what has got him through the trials you outlined - shear bloody minded determination to prevail, regardless of cost.

Brilliant military intellect? There isn't really any evidence of that in the text. He is of average intelligence, and been lucky on occasion (no Davos at Storms End? How does he beat Renly without Mel? Element of surprise against the wildlings, who were not expecting any resistance other than the depleted watch?)

He may well destroy the Boltons, but that victory will probably be partly Manderlay, part Bolton stupidity.

----------------

As to why people like Stannis, I think its because he is determined to follow a specific code of values regardless of cost. He is a simple (not scheming), driven individual. Scheming in the Stannis camp is usually done by others around him. The crown is his by rights, justice is his to administer, fealty owed to him. Blunt, simple, determined.

He isn't a complex shade of grey like Jamie and many other characters. Stannis is what he is.

Yes.

[JeepCSC]

We've seen King (or would-be kings) Robert, Balon, Joffrey, Viserys, Renly, Tommen, Robb, Euron and Queen Dany try to rule, and one wonders why Stannis is seen in something approaching good light? Clear water, yellow piss, Stannis wasn't far off the mark.

[Harold II]

And those 3 cannibals, why were they forced into eating human flesh? Because they were Stannis' soldiers, and he'd dragged them out into the middle of nowhere without thinking about any way to provide food for them. Great commander -- NOT! Reminiscent of Napoleon (or Hitler) attacking Russia in the winter.

General Patten + Tanks - Gas = stupid. Similar sort of stuff.

Yes, they ate human flesh, but they had no food, and would probably die ala German 6th army at Stalingrad, or the Japanese at various locations in the pacific during WWII.

If anything it shows that Stannis has no regard for the welfare of his troops. That is a sign of a very poor commander.

[JeepCSC]

Because Tyrion considered it, it must be so then, sorry but I don't hold Tyrions opinion on the subject in particularly high regard, especially as he wasn't even involved in the events.

Tyrion deftly handles similar tantrums by Joffrey. I suppose you could look to Joffrey and Aerys for a moral compass of your king, but, well, yeah, nothing else really to add.

[JeepCSC]

Duplicate

[A Man Has Said]

None of us loved Stannis before coming here of course...

And the way GRRM writes leaves things to interpretation in regards to characters. Not one thing is more correct than another when judging a character, unless absolutely falsehoods are stated(like in this thread, Stannis was gungho happy about wanting to burn Edric Storm).

There has sometimes been a fair amount of debate on Jaime's merits and/or lack thereof, and I don't see people accusing anyone of "LOL GROUPTHINK" in those.

Maybe that's because there is no other organized group on this forum that exists for the express purpose of whitewashing Jaime or any other character but Stannis.

Fine, support the guy. Christ, there are people who support Roose Bolton, who really is a p.o.s. There are supporters for every character except maybe Gregor, Vargo Hoat and Walder Frey.

Support him, but don't try to pretend that when he does something that is for instance the exact parallel of something that Aerys would have done, that it's OK because it's Stannis. That's a logical fallacy called special pleading, and to answer the OP's original question, at least one reason that a lot of people on this forum (and far more than on any other forum, by the way) support him is because they give him a pass on so many questionable acts - which is what the 'club' habitually does.

[Leif]

'Cause of Davos. I don't think I'd give a shit about Stannis if Davos wasn't so loyal to him.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Maybe that's because there is no other organized group on this forum that exists for the express purpose of whitewashing Jaime or any other character but Stannis.

Fine, support the guy. Christ, there are people who support Roose Bolton, who really is a p.o.s. There are supporters for every character except maybe Gregor, Vargo Hoat and Walder Frey.

Support him, but don't try to pretend that when he does something that is for instance the exact parallel of something that Aerys would have done, that it's OK because it's Stannis. That's a logical fallacy called special pleading, and to answer the OP's original question, at least one reason that a lot of people on this forum (and far more than on any other forum, by the way) support him is because they give him a pass on so many questionable acts - which is what the 'club' habitually does.

This is quite accurate, honestly.

[Harold II]

Stannis' military nous reminds me of Zapp Brannigan in futurama:

Zapp Brannigan: The Killbots? A trifle! It was simply a matter of outsmarting them.

Fry: Wow! I never would have thought of that!

Zapp Brannigan: You see, Killbots have a preset kill limit. Knowing their weakness, I sent wave after wave of my own men at them, until they reached their limit and shutdown. Kif, show them the medal I won.

(Kif then points to Zapp's chest where the medal is)

That's Stannis level strategy.