Why do people like Stannis?

[IRON BANK]

So it's the fault of the commander that he's better outfitted than his enemies? I call it a plus.

Very True Stannis did beat the wildling army, Even though I found it interesting that the main point of the wildling cause was to make it to the other side of the wall to escape the Others and WW. My point is Stannis shows a good sense of command by not whole heartedly and blindly destroying enemies. He treats with them after the battle finds out thier needs then finds a middle ground to move on. He also finds a way to join his strength to theirs. These are points that might be focused on.

[E-Ro]

Stannis skill as a commander of men and why he is a brilliant tactician.

As for the wildlings.

Stannis uses the men of Eastwatch to guide him and his thousand men to castle black. He launches a phenomenal three pronged assault on the wilding horde. He attacks the wildling soldiers and Mance tries to put up an effective defense, but it’s too little too late. Stannis has three columns of heavy horse assault Mances men. Stannis knows he can’t hope to take Mance in a pitched battle, Mance has too many men it’s simply not feasible at all. So he plays to his strengths, he knows that individually his men are better equipped and trained then your average wildling so he launches a daring and bold lightning attack designed to capture or kill the enemy commander or cause as much chaos and discord in the enemy ranks as possible getting them to break or accomplishing both tasks (which he does). Mance also had unconventional wepons in the form of giants and mammoths. No other commander in westeros has ever fought anything like this before, it was stannis’ first time against them as well. They manage to perform very well against the armored column sent against them. But the failure of one column did not affect the other two, now that is a damn good showing of Stannis’ leadership. This is imo, Stannis’ most impressive victory. Mance is himself no slouch at leading his men, he jumps right into action as soon as he hears the trumpets blaring, it’s too bad for him that Stannis planned this attack in such a way that it would have been extremely hard for Mance to win. The battle was not lost because of mances incompetence; it was lost because Stannis played to his strengths. He smashed an army far larger then his, and the wildlings had unconventional weapons in the form of giants and mammoths. We see how he split his heavy horse into 3 separate columns to surround, encircle, and crush mances hosts ability to fight back. His assault on the wildings completely demoralized them and crippled their ability to respond. He accomplished all of his objectives here, the complete and utter destruction of the wildlings ability to wage war, and the capture of the king beyond the wall.

Let me now address some common point’s people who don’t really know what they are talking about in regards to medieval warfare use to lessen this accomplishment.

1. The wildings had only a few thousand warriors!

That’s not true. Mances horde is placed at 100k people. Now the rate of fighting men in the wildling society is far greater then that of most other places. This is due to their lifestyle and their values. Its an extremely warlike society and only the strong survive for long. Even some of their women fight. These people will be big, strong, and fierce. We also have this quote by stannis on the wildling host.

Stannis bristled at that. "I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"

Twenty times his numbers is not accurate if Stannis is counting all the wildings in the horde, if hes including the old men, children, and woman who don’t fight the wildings have 100 times his numbers(he has 1k men the wilding host is 100k strong) so Stannis is counting only the wilding warriors. The ones that actually fight.

2. The wildings are ill equipped and have no formal training at arms!

This is true; they don’t have training by a master at arms fight with lesser weapons and are not very disciplined. But they are fierce, savage and have a huge number of fighters compared to stannis. I also find it troubling that people use the fact that stannis’ men are better equipped than the wildings as a way to lessen this victory. That’s nonsense. A good commander uses his men’s strengths to his advantage, and he tries to downplay their weaknesses. That’s precisely what makes him a good commander. Furthermore, you won’t hear any historian ever say how a better equipped forces leader is not good because his men had better equipment. Think about it, no one bitches about the romans having better equipment and training then 90% of their enemies, same for alexander the great his men were far superior to what he was fighting, yet no one says “lol brah he sucks because his men were better than the enemy” Also, let’s put some of you guys saying this about the wildlings in some plate or mail, give you a steel weapon and put you up against 5 screaming savages intent on killing you and see how long it takes them to knock you down and kill the shit out of you.

ETA: How has he taken allot of losses? He has only ever lost one battle in his entire career of leading men. Some of the greatest generals that have ever lived have taken losses and are still considered great.

[butterbumps!]

Thank god an other "why do people like Stannis" threads was created-- it had been a few hours and I nearly forgot how they go (though, that little Aerys tangent in the middle was delightfully unexpected).

I guess what this, and its 63,706 predecessors have taught me, is that Stannis is easily the most talked about but least analyzed character of the entire series, at least on here. I'm guessing that probably answer part of the question posed.

[IRON BANK]

The point is calling him a brilliant tactician is an exaggeration. He has a strong will (holding SE) but he's done nothing to put him in brilliant military mind status. He beat a wildling army with no real armor, and no formal training. His one big victory was against the IB, and some of that is partly because he had war galley's, against Vic's longships made for stealth and speed.

I agree: The wildling army is not the strongest. if they even had a lick of discipline Stannis would not be here. Stannishad surprise and technoology which he knew and used to his advantage. Not really bragging rights but still a victory.

[Harold II]

Gotta love the creative editing in that quote, conveniently omitting Stannis annihilating the Iron Fleet and Victarion at Fair Isle. And the whole "stannis was fighting homeless peasants at the wall" is bullshit. We had Jon's POV, they had giants, mammoths, and endless numbers. Stannis had about 1500 men. As for getting "rolled" at the battle of blackwater that was his lone defeat and the circumstances we're completely out of his control. He had the battle won. Oh and you omitted him recapturing Deepwood Motte. And Davos deserves the credit for keeping storm's end because of the onion gambit? Nonsense. A weaker willed man would have surrendered the castle months earlier and allowed Mace to join with the royal army, Stannis inadvertently saved the rebellion by keeping SE as long as he did. And Stannis is hardly waiting in the snow, starving, we have numerous threads detailing his theoretical plans for the battle.

You say "stannis was fighting homeless peasants at the wall" is bullshit. A retort:

1. Your reasoning is that there are a few difficult to control giants and mamoths standing around. Well, as I recall they actually helped cause the wildling collapse because they aren't much use and scatter breaking wildling lines. Carthaginians had the same problem with elephants. Also, they can only run in straight lines, which makes them easy to out manoeuvre. And if Wun Wun is anything to go by, how does one give orders to giants? They are a lose cannon force. A hindrance in a set piece battle.

2. You have your "endless numbers". Well, as the French discovered at Agincourt, superior numbers is actually a massive disadvantage in a tight field of battle. Let alone the fact that they were a mix of women and children, men armed with clubs and bones. People who had never seen armoured cavalry let alone fought them. Which comes back to the huge technological advantage Stannis' force had.

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Deepwood Motte was Jon's idea. Again, Stannis relies on those around him to come up with the goods.

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Trying to claim "Stannis had the battle won" at Blackwater is just papering over the cracks. He lost because he failed to take a poorly garrisoned Kings Landing before a superior force arrived.

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As to Stannis at Storms End, no one has claimed Stannis had a weak will. Just that it doesn't take a brilliant military mind to hold in a siege. Just determination and guts. Which Stannis has in bucket loads. But without Davos he was dead.

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Stannis marched his horde into the snow without a sufficient logistics chain. That was a poor strategy, even if he has a plan. It's Patten setting off with a huge tank force and not enough fuel all over again.

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I like Stannis, but he isn't a brilliant military commander with a superior intellect. His wins have come when he either has superior force, a tactical advantage because of his opponents force structure (note: not because of superior tactics), or a conflict of wills rather than wits (eg the siege of SE).

Whenever a war has hinged on strategy (and I mean strategy not tactics, go look it up if you don't know the difference) he has been found wanting.

He has a lot of guts and determination. But some of the Stannis love around here is illogical, people trying to reinterpret him into something there is zero evidence for.

He has next to no empathy or understanding of his troops. If you don't know the morale or state of your force you have no ability to rely on them in battle.

He isn't some sort of divine war fighting infallible commander as you make out he is.

[E-Ro]

You say "stannis was fighting homeless peasants at the wall" is bullshit. A retort:

1. Your reasoning is that there are a few difficult to control giants and mamoths standing around. Well, as I recall they actually helped cause the wildling collapse because they aren't much use and scatter breaking wildling lines. Carthaginians had the same problem with elephants. Also, they can only run in straight lines, which makes them easy to out manoeuvre. And if Wun Wun is anything to go by, how does one give orders to giants? They are a lose cannon force. A hindrance in a set piece battle.

Wrong. these are mammoths with giants riding them. The giants have more control over the mamoths then any human army has ever had over elephants. If you will recall the mammoths actually broke one of the columns of heavy horse. Your claim that they helped the wildlings break is patently false, and unsupported by anything in the text.

2. You have your "endless numbers". Well, as the French discovered at Agincourt, superior numbers is actually a massive disadvantage in a tight field of battle. Let alone the fact that they were a mix of women and children, men armed with clubs and bones. People who had never seen armoured cavalry let alone fought them. Which comes back to the huge technological advantage Stannis' force had.

Stannis did have a technological advantage, but that isnt the be all end all, especially when the enemy has such unconventional weapons. As i explained in the post above.

Deepwood Motte was Jon's idea. Again, Stannis relies on those around him to come up with the goods.

Since when is taking advice from subordinates that know the land and people in an area better then you a bad thing?

Trying to claim "Stannis had the battle won" at Blackwater is just papering over the cracks. He lost because he failed to take a poorly garrisoned Kings Landing before a superior force arrived.

He failed because a freak storm slowed his army, and the lannisters and tyrells and superb timing.

Stannis marched his horde into the snow without a sufficient logistics chain. That was a poor strategy, even if he has a plan. It's Patten setting off with a huge tank force and not enough fuel all over again.

Once again, freak storms are not his fault. his plan for the north is fine.

[Harold II]

Very True Stannis did beat the wildling army, Even though I found it interesting that the main point of the wildling cause was to make it to the other side of the wall to escape the Others and WW. My point is Stannis shows a good sense of command by not whole heartedly and blindly destroying enemies. He treats with them after the battle finds out thier needs then finds a middle ground to move on. He also finds a way to join his strength to theirs. These are points that might be focused on.

He was pushed into that position by Jon!

[Harold II]

I won't bother posting on Stannis threads again. They just get white washed with Stannis lovers, who seem to think he is Napoleon and Jesus rolled into one.

[E-Ro]

Here is the exact quote.

The giants were climbing onto their mammoths, though, and the knights on their barded horses did not like that at all; he could see how the coursers and destriers screamed and scattered at the sight of those lumbering mountains... the mammoths had shattered the center column but the other two were closing like pincers.

Soooo yeah.

I won't bother posting on Stannis threads again. They just get white washed with Stannis lovers, who seem to think he is Napoleon and Jesus rolled into one.

Yes, when met with superior points a graceful way to give up and admit wrong is to scream about whitewashing.

[StannisBamfatheon]

He was pushed into that position by Jon!

So heading good advice from your compatriots makes you a bad commander? Got it.

[Mladen]

Thank god an other "why do people like Stannis" threads was created-- it had been a few hours and I nearly forgot how they go (though, that little Aerys tangent in the middle was delightfully unexpected).

I guess what this, and its 63,706 predecessors have taught me, is that Stannis is easily the most talked about but least analyzed character of the entire series, at least on here. I'm guessing that probably answer part of the question posed.

I can't believe that I was gone for several hours and that we got 13 pages of such recycled idea. These "Why do you like Stannis" threads are becoming so boring... Not to mention that have nothing new to read...

And, I agree with you completely. Interestingly, Stannis is the most talked about person, and yet no one is analyzing him. You would think that King's Men would put an effort to explain us why they love Stannis, to do profilic thread in which we are going to discuss Stannis on some other level then hearing "Stannis! Stannis! Stannis- Rightful KIng of whatever ". I once thought that Reread Davos thread will bring them so we could discuss Stannis more seriously, but it didn't work. Simply, Stannis has become the only main characters that has not one serious analysis... And that's sad, King's Men... Just sad...

[JeepCSC]

I think the reason stanhaters think others think he is Jesus and Napoleon combined is because they attack too broadly, too deeply, and too clumsily that their objections are overruled from sheer stupidity. Claim that Stannis killed his brother through magic? Fine. Claim Stannis should have given up his throne quest to Renly because of John Locke? Insane. Claim Stannis thinks about burning a kid? Fine. Claim Stannis is basically Aerys incarnate? Overkill. People can't seem to talk rationally about Stannis. He isn't portrayed as a prince among thieves ala Ned, nor as a lovable rapscallion like Tyrion, but he isn't a monster. He is a funny, cold, complex man who views his rights as a point of pride and squashes those that get in his way. Among those in power in this crazy world, he is one of the easier ones to like. It would be cool if he got crazy plot gifts thrown his way, but he just keeps churning along any way.

[Jon Wolfwalker]

I find it so bewildering that there is this much love for the man. Brother killing murderers are so loveable(He did consent to it, though remorse for murder is so redeeming.).

[JeepCSC]

I find it so bewildering that there is this much love for the man. Brother killing murderers are so loveable(He did consent to it, though remorse for murder is so redeeming.).

Two of the most loved characters in the story are a father-killing imp and a she-wolf who seems to make a habit of marking her territory with dead bodies.

[chrisdaw]

Traitors who would refuse their king need executing, that's the job and thankfully Stannis is up to the task.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Hes just meh.

[Silent_Hero]

I can't believe that I was gone for several hours and that we got 13 pages of such recycled idea. These "Why do you like Stannis" threads are becoming so boring... Not to mention that have nothing new to read...

And, I agree with you completely. Interestingly, Stannis is the most talked about person, and yet no one is analyzing him. You would think that King's Men would put an effort to explain us why they love Stannis, to do profilic thread in which we are going to discuss Stannis on some other level then hearing "Stannis! Stannis! Stannis- Rightful KIng of whatever ". I once thought that Reread Davos thread will bring them so we could discuss Stannis more seriously, but it didn't work. Simply, Stannis has become the only main characters that has not one serious analysis... And that's sad, King's Men... Just sad...

"Least Analyzed"!? What! Stannis is the most conflicted Character in the series right up there with Jamie, Reek and Sandor Clegane. He does his duty with conflict the way Reek tortures himself, the way Jamie breaks himself, the way Sandor hates himself and his illusionment with Knighthood.

He fights for the throne because he must, and to not would be to throw away the law and there is no other man out there then Stannis that follows the law to the letter, I would write much more but I feel that it would require a new thread.( this ones really dried up)

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

"Least Analyzed"!? What! Stannis is the most conflicted Character in the series right up there with Jamie, Reek and Sandor Clegane. He does his duty with conflict the way Reek tortures himself, the way Jamie breaks himself, the way Sandor hates himself and his illusionment with Knighthood.

He fights for the throne because he must, and to not would be to throw away the law and there is no other man out there then Stannis that follows the law to the letter, I would write much more but I feel that it would require a new thread.( this ones really dried up)

Actually I find his character bland since there is no POV, you cant compare his complexity to Jaime and Theon, who have POVs and we can see their thoughts.

[Mladen]

"Least Analyzed"!? What! Stannis is the most conflicted Character in the series right up there with Jamie, Reek and Sandor Clegane. He does his duty with conflict the way Reek tortures himself, the way Jamie breaks himself, the way Sandor hates himself and his illusionment with Knighthood.

He fights for the throne because he must, and to not would be to throw away the law and there is no other man out there then Stannis that follows the law to the letter, I would write much more but I feel that it would require a new thread.( this ones really dried up)

Do you understand what the word analysis means? I was talking about reluctance of the part of community that is interested in Stannis to do deep analysis of Stannis' actions... I wasn't talking about GRRM's writing... But, all of that is implied by the word "analysis"

Actually I find his character bland since there is no POV, you cant compare his complexity to Jaime and Theon, who have POVs and we can see their thoughts.

Thing is that we do talk about Stannis on a very shallow level. Stannis has complexity, and he is very real character, just like anyone in ASOIAF...

[Silent_Hero]

Actually I find his character bland since there is no POV, you cant compare his complexity to Jaime amd Theon, who have POVs and we can see their thoughts.

Just cause we see their POVS doesn't mean anything, Cat, Areo and Damphair have POVS. and they are the most bland, GRRM won't give out POVS for the Kings, Stannis has a very complex character that is well complex to nail.