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direwolf

Regarding Tyrion

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The key here is Varys. He's the only one who tells the truth. He may not tell anybody the whole truth, but there's been nothing untrue said by Varys throughout the books. His power is based upon people trusting him. In all honesty, I believe Varys when he says that he "serves the realm". Varys is bringing Tyrion to Dany because he thinks it will serve the realm.

And, I think Tyrion has the same power as Varys; people follow him because he's usually right. If Tyrion says to Bronn, there'll be something in it for you (gold, knighthood, power, whatever) then Bronn usually ends up happy (i.e. Lord Stokeworth). I know that Tyrion didn't name him Lord Stokeworth directly, but Bronn found himself in that position because he followed Tyrion's path long enough to be in a position to take it. Sure, Tyrion uses his name to get ahead, but he's wise with the power he gets.

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The key here is Varys. He's the only one who tells the truth. He may not tell anybody the whole truth, but there's been nothing untrue said by Varys throughout the books.

This is, at best, true only in a very technical sense. Varys implies to Ned that Ser Hugh was responsible for poisoning Jon Arryn, but Lysa admits to giving Arryn the poison herself. It's also at best debatable that Varys is being honest with Illyrio in their encounter in AGoT.

And Varys' power isn't based on people trusting him, because most people don't. His power is based on his ability to manipulate people, which doesn't necessarily require people to trust him.

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Tyrion is not brilliant but he sure is pragmatic. He knows that hes an ugly dwarf, and he aknowledges his few strenghs and many weaknesses. Everyone else seem to be acting otherwise; Cersei attempting to be queen, Tywin attempting to be god (expects complete obedience, unsmiling, the manifistation of law and reason...), Margaery claiming to be a maiden, etc.

Not trying to say anything important here, just adding my 2 cents about Tyrion.. I'm sure you all have thought of that already, but I didn't see this being mentioned here yet.

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Varys probably knows about Tyrion`s love for dragons and try to use it.I think that Ilyrio`s duty is to bring Daenerys second`dragon head` and Varys must bring her third head and I think that would probably be Jon Snow-there are few good theories that he is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. And beside,he was friend of Tyrion.So,Varys will appear on Wall,but in some other appearance and he will tell Jon Snow something like this

``Jon,Rhaegar is your father!``

``Noooooooooooooooo!``

But I don`t know how will Dany be ally with brother of men who killed her father.

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Varys probably knows about Tyrion`s love for dragons and try to use it.I think that Ilyrio`s duty is to bring Daenerys second`dragon head` and Varys must bring her third head and I think that would probably be Jon Snow-there are few good theories that he is son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. And beside,he was friend of Tyrion.So,Varys will appear on Wall,but in some other appearance and he will tell Jon Snow something like this

Tyrion made little secret of his interest to dragons so Varys would probably know about it but I seriously doubt that he knows about Tyrion and Jon friendship. As for dragon's heads... If Illrio is sure that he know all three that Varys knows them too, but whom they consider dragon's heads is a big question.

But I don`t know how will Dany be ally with brother of men who killed her father.

She was married to a man that killed her brother after all. Tyrion was a child when Jaime become Kingslayer and barely could be help responsible for it. And besides he will arrive in company with Grif.

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She was married to a man that killed her brother after all.

Viserys' death, for various reasons, didn't anger Dany all that much--she'd accepted, to some extent, the idea that he'd brought it on himself. However, Jaime Lannister's killing of Aerys _does_ piss her off quite a bit. So the two are hardly comparable.

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Viserys' death, for various reasons, didn't anger Dany all that much--she'd accepted, to some extent, the idea that he'd brought it on himself. However, Jaime Lannister's killing of Aerys _does_ piss her off quite a bit. So the two are hardly comparable.

Actually it is very similar since Aerys also brought it on himself by his mad actions. Dany surely doesn't know details but she knows that her father was at least partially responsible for his death.

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NOW NOW...dont bring Aerys into this....poor Aerys....he was drivin insane by the game of thrones...he never hurt any commoners, only lords...Actually he was probably driven insane by the brain mutation that was a resut of incest. As for Tyrion I think that Illyrio and Varys simply want him alive. Come what may. A live dwarf has more use than a dead one...And if varys really wanted danny alive why the helll would he ever tell the council where she was or that she had a baby

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M:

Whether or not it's similar in a broader sense, the fact remains that Dany sees them differently. She never considers the khal her enemy--or even somebody to be hated--while Jaime Lannister is mentioned as such more than once. She may now be confronting the idea that her father was mad, but that's not the same thing as concluding that Aerys was "at least partially responsible for his death."

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It's also at best debatable that Varys is being honest with Illyrio in their encounter in AGoT.

What would you argue Varys was being dishonest about, specifically?

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And if varys really wanted danny alive why the helll would he ever tell the council where she was or that she had a baby

I think it's because, at the time, he thought it would be better for the realm. Now, it's better for the realm for a new regime to take power. That's my theory anyway.

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And if varys really wanted danny alive why the helll would he ever tell the council where she was or that she had a baby

Because Robert would have insisted on getting regular updates about the last remaining Targaryens, because initially Jon Arryn was preventing Robert from actually trying to kill Viserys or Dany, and because eventually Varys decided that an assassination attempt would be necessary to goose Drogo into action.

GD:

Well, he's protesting to Illyrio that the looming civil war is coming despite his best efforts, when in fact he does quite a bit to encourage it along: he plays along with LF's ploy about the dagger, and he suggests that Ser Hugh poisoned Jon Arryn at Cersei's request.

It's also hard to see how he was involved in the death of a Hand, as Illyrio seems to believe; Merryweather and Connington were both exiled, Chelsted died after directly confronting Aerys, Jaime killed Rossart on his own, and finally Jon Arryn's death seems to be the work of Littlefinger and Lysa.

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M:

Whether or not it's similar in a broader sense, the fact remains that Dany sees them differently. She never considers the khal her enemy--or even somebody to be hated--while Jaime Lannister is mentioned as such more than once. She may now be confronting the idea that her father was mad, but that's not the same thing as concluding that Aerys was "at least partially responsible for his death."

She may see the things differently but she has no reasons to consider Tyrion her enemy. That’s right he is one of the hated Lannisters but all his ties with his family already cut off and she will know about it. Mind even Sand Snakes that have no less reasons to hate Lannisters do not include Tyron in their death list.

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t's also hard to see how he was involved in the death of a Hand, as Illyrio seems to believe; Merryweather and Connington were both exiled, Chelsted died after directly confronting Aerys, Jaime killed Rossart on his own, and finally Jon Arryn's death seems to be the work of Littlefinger and Lysa.

Illyrio didn't say that Varys had killed a former Hand. To me it sounds like Varys had killed troublemakers in high positions before. It hadn't to be a Hand. He could refer other people with power at court.

Well, he's protesting to Illyrio that the looming civil war is coming despite his best efforts, when in fact he does quite a bit to encourage it along: he plays along with LF's ploy about the dagger, and he suggests that Ser Hugh poisoned Jon Arryn at Cersei's request.

Indeed. His plotting with Petyr seems to be rather odd. He must know that the dagger wasn't Tyrion's, for that wasn't a secret and Petyr's story about Tyrion betting against his family is complete nonsense.

I think he didn't upset Littlefinger because he didn't want to fight with him openly. Varys seems to help even Littlefinger from time to time. Even Tyrion dared not to remove Littlefinger after the story with the dagger. So it seems that Varys hasn't the strength to fight Petyr and makes his own plots to restore the Targaryens.

And after all, Catelyn wouldn't have believed the Spider rather than he old friend Petyr.

Also Catelyn's encounter with Tyrion happened rather accidentally. That event started the war. Neither Littlefinger nor Varys would have imagined that.

Farther Varys could have believed indeed that Ser Hugh poisoned Jon Arryn. Littlefinger trys very efficient to hide his real plots - the abduction of Sansa, Joffrey's murder and, probably, Jon Arryn's murder - from Varys. We have no guarantee that Varys wasn't aware of Joffrey's poisoning or Sansa's abduction, and just hadn't done anything, of course. Ned wished to investigate his death, so both, Varys and Petyr used this to gain his trust.

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I fully agree with Yoren....I don't see why so many people praise Tyrion. He seems like little more than comic relief to me. He is supposedly this great, vastly intelligent, and underestimated dwarf lord, but all the many holes he's had the misfortune to be in, and the only one I've seen with a shovel is him.

Someone said he is a great judge of people? Why, because he judged Varys and Littlefinger of harboring secret motives? So did Eddard Stark, and look where he is now. The only reason Tyrion still lives after his handship, is because of his brother whom we all can agree, isn't the player their daddy was. In fact, Jaime was one of the very few that knew Tyrion and still had any respect for him, and Tyrion seems ready to kill him over a much dead issue that Jaime had little control over anyway.

Bottom line is that I personally have always thought Tyrion was an idiot no matter how many times he claims otherwise.

He saved KL's. He lead the sortie that saved the gate. He thought up and executed the chain. He kept Joffrey in line better than anyone else. He understands people much better than we give him credit for. He japes and drinks to kill the pain. He has labored for years under the false assumption that his wife was a whore hired by Jaime...and he loved Jaime. I think finding out that Jaime went along with Tywin's idea to tell Tyrion that Tysha was a whore hurt Tyrion terribly. Jaime was the only family member Tyrion trusted.

He managed to get out of the Vale alive and pulled toether the mountain people to fight with him in two major battles. And the fact they were paid is nothing - Tywin hired the Bloody Mummers for Other's Sake.

He is funny and quick witted. But I think he is more than comic relief.

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Tyrion has correctly seen through more schemes than most any other player in the game. It was only while he was incapacitated that anyone was able to get the upper hand on him. His only other major fault was trusting his family (Joff specifically) to not turn on him, and he has learned that lesson.

Tyrion knows all of the things that Dany’s other advisors don’t. He knows more about the world outside KL than Selmey and he has two other cards up his sleeves. He is likely the only expert(book knowledge) in dragon training left in the world because it has been a fascination of his. He can be the type of Sleuth that Dany desperately needs in settling the problems she is having in Myreen.

Varys was going to free Tyrion anyway. Jaime "forcing" him to do it was just icing on Varys' cake. He had the whole thing with the Goaler and the gold coin in the dungeon set up before Jaime made his appearance. Whatever involvement he had is Shae being with Tywin was already done. And he had his & Tyrion’s escape planned. I can’t figure out any way that Varys could have manipulated Jaime into doing what he did, so I have to assume that Jaime’s actions were a surprise to Varys.

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My question is: does anyone know what Illyrio wants period?

That has been driving me crazy since the series started. I have read that bit from AGoT where (presumably) Varys and Illyrio chat in the undercroft of KL while Arya listens and I can't figure it out.

However, if I were in Dany's position -making ready to invade Westeros- I would certainly want Varys and Tyrion on my side. The know so much. Hopefully, she understands their value.

And yes, I think Tyrion would like to see the dragons - recall he talks about dreaming of dragons. And whoever posted that he has read heavily in that area is correct. He may be able to give Dany some practical information about the control and perservation of dragons gone wild.

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:lol:

Can u picture Tyrion doing an Animal Planet type documentary on Dany's dragons --> in Steve Irwin The Crocodile Hunter's Khaki Shirt&Pants and saying: "Crikey... this one is called DROOOGON, yeah Drogon... It's native to - WOAH!!! Almost bit me lil' sword off, and u know Tysha wouldn't have liked that... huh, did u see that?!?! The little bugger can be that quick that if they're within range, you're dead, you're dead in your tracks. And his head weighs more than my body so it's WHACK! Gee whiz, wow... great stuff, WOOOOOH!"

:rofl:

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:lol:

Can u picture Tyrion doing an Animal Planet type documentary on Dany's dragons --> in Steve Irwin The Crocodile Hunter's Khaki Shirt&Pants and saying: "Crikey... this one is called DROOOGON, yeah Drogon... It's native to - WOAH!!! Almost bit me lil' sword off, and u know Tysha wouldn't have liked that... huh, did u see that?!?! The little bugger can be that quick that if they're within range, you're dead, you're dead in your tracks. And his head weighs more than my body so it's WHACK! Gee whiz, wow... great stuff, WOOOOOH!"

:rofl:

That's beautiful :lmao:

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