Pink Letter crackpottery

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

You really hate stannis huh? If he wanted to burn jon he woupsve done so at the wall.

I didn't say he wants to burn Jon. He wants to burn King's blood and Stannis don't know Jon is of the blood of the dragon.

[BericDondarrion]

Um don't we see 1 or 2 spearswives murdered before the end of Theons chapter?!?! Come on 3 or 4 woman sparsely armored and armed against a massive host of the Norths fiercest fighters?

[Consigliere]

I believe the letter was written by Stannis and the key to know it was him is the mention of Val as the wildling princess:

Why would Ramsay or Mance call Val a Princess when that is something that come from the head of the Lord Stannis, he wants blood of king to burn.

The thing that makes me skeptical about Stannis writing the letter is the part about Mance and the 6 spearwives. As far as Stannis knows Mance has been burnt and the only other people who knew about Mance and the 6 spearwives is Jon and Mel. During Theon and Jeynes escape the guards are alerted and 2 of the spearwives killed. I think Mance and the remaining spearwives were taken into custody and tortured into revealing their plans. I still think that Ramsay wrote the letter based on false information he received from the Manderly forces. Stannis and the Manderly forces concoted a plan to lure Ramsay out of Winterfell and the letter is just an unintended consequence of those plans.

[Light a wight tonight]

The thing that makes me skeptical about Stannis writing the letter is the part about Mance and the 6 spearwives. As far as Stannis knows Mance has been burnt and the only other people who knew about Mance and the 6 spearwives is Jon and Mel. During Theon and Jeynes escape the guards are alerted and 2 of the spearwives killed. I think Mance and the remaining spearwives were taken into custody and tortured into revealing their plans. I still think that Ramsay wrote the letter based on false information he received from the Manderly forces. Stannis and the Manderly forces concoted a plan to lure Ramsay out of Winterfell and the letter is just an unintended consequence of those plans.

In a conversation with Jon fake-Rattleshirt hints that Stannis was aware that it wasn't Mance who was burned.

[TheJazzMan61]

I really like this theory, but if it is a coded letter, then I think that Mance did it too well, because JS has no idea.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

I believe the letter was written by Mance. He wants to goad Jon into bringing the wildlings down with him to Winterfell. Where he will either imprison Jon or try to get Jon to claim Winterfell. The deception could also be positively driven by Mance. Perhaps he's learned something about "always a stark in Winterfell" and knows that Jon's current place should be at Winterfell, not the wall.

I don't believe the letter was written by Stannis because Stannis doesn't lie. And honestly, he has no need to lie to Jon. There isn't anything in the letter in the letter that Stannis would want. But assuming so, he'd just demand they be brought to him as is his right as king. He wouldn't hide behind a lie.

If the letter was written by Ramsey, Ramsey would have sent proof. Skin. A penis. A head. As we've seen through previous examples, Ramsey would have sent something to prove his words. Of course, Jon doesn't know that about him.

Before getting stabbed, Jon's plan was to march down to Winterfell with an army of Wildling soilders that he thinks are his. Assuming Mance did write the letter, upon revealing himself to the wildlings when they reach Winterfell the wildlings will turn on Jon. Maybe a few won't but for the most part they'd defect. Jon would essentially be completely alone.

With Ramsey's crew on the way to battle Stannis, Winterfell would be lightly held. It is mid-winter after all. Ramsey would assume the likelihood of anyone else attempting to take Winterfell would be low. Also, giving +5 to the wildlings for "winter warfare" they could take Winterfell easily. The glitch in this plan would be Stannis if he beats Ramsey in battle. He'd still want Mance's head.

[Light a wight tonight]

I really like this theory, but if it is a coded letter, then I think that Mance did it too well, because JS has no idea.

I think it was for Mel, actually, but she couldn't receive raven mail. She and Mance had been planning all sorts of things after she switched his appearance with Rattleshirt.

[DaveSnow House Stark]

I don't see Stannis sending this letter. It is just too out of character for him to do. He is straight forward type of person, nothing that I remember him doing would lead me to belive this is him.

I also don't think it could be Ramsey. To be able to write the letter Ramsey would have to know the content of the letter. Which means he would have to have gotten information from Mance or the Spear wives. If I rememeber correctly the wild are known for not talking. I don't have text in front of me but I thought that when Jon and Qhorin came across Ygritte and the other wildlings that Qhorin said something along the lines of you will never get one to speak.

So that only leaves Mance, or possibly Mance with Stannis saying it's ok.

[Little and Less]

Totally agree with Titan's bastard on this one - sounds like Ramsay. This letter sounds like most of the intel would be from a tortured and humiliated Mance and peppered with a little Manderly misdirection.

Val is called the Wildling princess - Mance knows this, the wording is not surprising.

Only Ramsay would make reference to a cloak of flayed skins - Stannis/Mance/Mel - all the other candidates would not have thought of something so specific.

GRRM constantly tells us that Ramsay hated the term Bastard - just intuition, but there is an evil/derogatory feel to the way its used - I think Ramsay would use this because he knows first hand how it feels to be called this - HE THINKS it will blindly enrage Jon. I think Stannis/Mance/Mel etc...who have met Jon know that this wouldn't have been enough to enrage him; they would have concentrated on Arya's wellbeing (and NOT use the term -my bride).

Just a hunch - but Mel (vision)/Stannis/Mance were all trying to save Arya for Jon - they would have focused on her in the threat because they know that would be Jon's achilles heel.

Past history shows Jon almost AWOLed the NW for Robb, I would have used Arya as my threat to Jon to get him to leave the NW.

[DaveSnow House Stark]

Totally agree with Titan's bastard on this one - sounds like Ramsay. This letter sounds like most of the intel would be from a tortured and humiliated Mance and peppered with a little Manderly misdirection.

Val is called the Wildling princess - Mance knows this, the wording is not surprising.

Only Ramsay would make reference to a cloak of flayed skins - Stannis/Mance/Mel - all the other candidates would not have thought of something so specific.

GRRM constantly tells us that Ramsay hated the term Bastard - just intuition, but there is an evil/derogatory feel to the way its used - I think Ramsay would use this because he knows first hand how it feels to be called this - HE THINKS it will blindly enrage Jon. I think Stannis/Mance/Mel etc...who have met Jon know that this wouldn't have been enough to enrage him; they would have concentrated on Arya's wellbeing (and NOT use the term -my bride).

Just a hunch - but Mel (vision)/Stannis/Mance were all trying to save Arya for Jon - they would have focused on her in the threat because they know that would be Jon's achilles heel.

The same statements can be made for Mance. Mance knows Jon hates being called a bastard. Mance knows about the wildling prince and princess. The Boltons sigil is the flayed man, and having been in Winterfell for a while now I am sure Mance has heard the stories so a skin cloak isn't a stretch.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Totally agree with Titan's bastard on this one - sounds like Ramsay. This letter sounds like most of the intel would be from a tortured and humiliated Mance and peppered with a little Manderly misdirection.

Val is called the Wildling princess - Mance knows this, the wording is not surprising.

Only Ramsay would make reference to a cloak of flayed skins - Stannis/Mance/Mel - all the other candidates would not have thought of something so specific.

GRRM constantly tells us that Ramsay hated the term Bastard - just intuition, but there is an evil/derogatory feel to the way its used - I think Ramsay would use this because he knows first hand how it feels to be called this - HE THINKS it will blindly enrage Jon. I think Stannis/Mance/Mel etc...who have met Jon know that this wouldn't have been enough to enrage him; they would have concentrated on Arya's wellbeing (and NOT use the term -my bride).

Just a hunch - but Mel (vision)/Stannis/Mance were all trying to save Arya for Jon - they would have focused on her in the threat because they know that would be Jon's achilles heel.

Ramsey doesn't know Jon Snow well enough to know that being a called a bastard would bother him. Particularly since Jon Snow wasn't raised as a bastard the same way Ramsey was. Jon lived at Winterfell with his father. He was cared for despite being a bastard. Ramsey was ignored because he was a bastard. Different points of view. However, Mance *does* know how being a bastard affected Jon.

Everyone in the north knows that the Bolton's still flay skins. Mance having being around Ramsey while he's been in Winterfell would know this as well. Additionally, Mance is clever enough to include that detail for Jon as Jon would also know this (and probably not much else) about the Boltons.

[Little and Less]

Does Jon hate being called a bastard? At first he did.....but he's grown since GOT. Calling him a bastard isn't going to get much of a reaction. BUT calling Ramsay a bastard will get a HUGE reaction - Ramsay thinks using the term will cause the same reaction in Jon, but I doubt it really will - Jon's sort of immune to this by the end of ADWD. Ramsay wouldn't know this.

If Mance wanted to use anything derogatory - its calling him a coward and a turncoat. (The Wildlings don't really care about the term bastard; most of them are bastards in the Westrosi sense anyways.)

Yes I agree, when you think of Bolton - you think of flayed skin. But a flayed skin coat - that is pretty specific (and gruesome) and I couldn't imagine being tortured AND wearing a flayed skin coat like Mance - I would crack too.

[Budj]

Manderly's forces bring back Stannis' sword and claim victory. Ramsey writes the letter based on information he extracted from the spearwives / Manderly's false reports. Mance is not captured...my optimistic hope is that he is hiding out in the crypts a la Bael.

The ploy from Stannis was to get Jon to march from the North on WF with Wildlings in tow because everybody knows his only move is to meet them in the field when threatened by a larger host from the south. This is both to get Jon to WF and to also bring reinforcements. I'm guessing there would be a signal of some kind from outside when everything is in place for Manderly's forces to begin the seige from within. The Stannis and his remaining army that was re-supplied after the battle / potential massacre of the Freys where Stannis was holding out meet up with the Umbers and wait for the gates to be opened.

At least that's how I think it was originally supposed to go before Jon got axed.

[Zell Holland]

The letter is much too Mance-centric for it to be written by Ramsay. It seems to be some sort of coded message though I can't figure out the meaning.

[Robin the Mighty]

I agree that this is probably the likeliest scenario. Ramsay wrote the letter, but is operating on incorrect information. Mance would be my next guess.

Second it!

To OP: Why would mance write a message like that if nobody knew how to read it? Also what ice are you talking about?

[Light a wight tonight]

Second it!

To OP: Why would mance write a message like that if nobody knew how to read it? Also what ice are you talking about?

As I have posted the letter was for Melisandre, to get to her secondhand.

Ice (the original) was an old sword of the Starks, believed by some to be a captured Others sword. It was lost centuries if not millennia ago. The Valyrian greatsword named Ice that was reforged into Oath Keeper and Widow's Wail by Tobho Mott was named after it.

[Glenn of House Patrick]

What I'd like to know is why seemingly everyone is convinced that Ramsay didn't write the Pink Letter? I've read up on it, but theres nothing about the letter that leads me to believe that someone else wrote it.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

Manderly's forces bring back Stannis' sword and claim victory. Ramsey writes the letter based on information he extracted from the spearwives / Manderly's false reports. Mance is not captured...my optimistic hope is that he is hiding out in the crypts a la Bael.

The ploy from Stannis was to get Jon to march from the North on WF with Wildlings in tow because everybody knows his only move is to meet them in the field when threatened by a larger host from the south. This is both to get Jon to WF and to also bring reinforcements. I'm guessing there would be a signal of some kind from outside when everything is in place for Manderly's forces to begin the seige from within. The Stannis and his remaining army that was re-supplied after the battle / potential massacre of the Freys where Stannis was holding out meet up with the Umbers and wait for the gates to be opened.

At least that's how I think it was originally supposed to go before Jon got axed.

This is certainly likely but GRRM has stated that Stannis is the only real "hero" in the book. Him lying just doesn't add up. Though using it as a calculated risk seems likely for someone else but for Stannis? It doesn't parse.

“Pylos, read it to him.”

“Your Grace.” The maester took up one of the parchments and cleared his throat. “All men know me for the trueborn son of Steffon Baratheon, Lord of Storm’s End, by his lady wife Cassana of House Estermont. I declare upon the honor of my House that my beloved brother Robert, our late king, left no trueborn issue of his body, the boy Joffrey, the boy Tommen, and the girl Myrcella being abominations born of incest between Cersei Lannister and her brother Jaime the Kingslayer. By right of birth and blood, I do this day lay claim to the Iron Throne of the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. Let all true men declare their loyalty. Done in the Light of the Lord, under the sign and seal of Stannis of House Baratheon, the First of His Name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar, and the First Men, and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms.” The parchment rustled softly as Pylos laid it down.

“Make it Ser Jaime the Kingslayer henceforth,” Stannis said, frowning. “Whatever else the man may be, he remains a knight. I don’t know that we ought to call Robert my beloved brother either. He loved me no more than he had to, nor I him.”

“A harmless courtesy, Your Grace,” Pylos said.

“A lie. Take it out.”

(Davos I, ACoK)

Stannis wouldn't allow the use of a lie, a simple white lie, in the letter declaring himself king. Why would he write a false letter to Jon even if he needs the reinforcements? He just *wouldn't* do that. Tywin would do that. But Stannis? If he did, that's a huge change in his character. He appointed Davos as his "hand" because Davos tells him the truth. Stannis values honesty greatly.

Also, Stannis just released "Arya" and Theon to travel back to the wall. Why not hold Arya hostage as added incentive to get Jon to leave the Wall?

[Little and Less]

I guess my point is - if you REALLY wanted to get Jon to come to WF to fight, would you not use Arya being tortured/raped by Ramsay as your catalyst? (Come and see what I am doing to your little sister....)

Both Stannis and Mance told Jon that they were going to try and save Arya - hence Mance going to WF and Stannis mentioning to Jon that he would try to help Arya if he could. Thus if Stannis and Mance wanted to write a false letter to Jon to goad him to WF and into the war - would you not emphasis what you were doing to his little sister?

Unless it doesn't really bother you to torture/flay women or your bride - like Ramsay (maybe you think its your right).

[Little and Less]

Agreed - hard for me to think Stannis would write this letter. I think would be more direct to Jon.

Pink Letter per Stannis - "Jon - Stannis here. Not dead. As your King I command you to WF - time to take down the Bastard. Bring NW/Wildings as back up. SB" :drunk: