A Wolf Pup In The Frozen Wilderness: The Whereabouts of Benjen Stark

[King Tyrion VIII]

It was made pretty clear that the cache was put there recently.

[jarl the climber]

There definitely seemed to be something odd about Benjens ranging but I've yet to see a theory that really makes sense about it. If Mormont had sent Ben on a secret mission he would have left some records of it that Jon would have found when he sucseeded him. The two members of his party that were found seemed to have been placed there deliberately by somebody. Ben was famous, if a wildling had killed him and his party they would want to take credit for it, so it seems unlikely that he was killed by wildlings. All though I can not rule out Craster killing him and keeping his mouth shut about it. Mace admitted that there was more traffic between the Watch and the wildlings than Jon realised so the theory of a relationship between him and Ben is not ridiculous.

Honestly I think Ben is dead but before he died he was found by Rayder and that he might have imparted valuable information to Mance about certian things relating to Jon. I like the theory that he is the hooded man but you figure that someone would recognise him including Theon who had met him before. Martin really has not given us much to go on with Benjen so its really hard to come up with anything concrete.

[bemused]

I think Theon did recognize him, but assumes he's one of the ghosts in Winterfell. This is why he's oddly unafraid ( e.g. to remove his glove - a ghost isn't going to tell Ramsay, so there'll be no repercussions)..and this is why he never mentions the HM to Roose when he's being interrogated.

Yes, the cache at the fist was buried recently. The NW cloak it was wrapped in was new,strong fabric. ..damp , but not decayed.

Going back to Mormont's raven repeating " Dead,dead, dead". You have to think that if Benjen has met up with the CoTF, and he's on a mission for them..( Winterfell,or LoAW, or both ).. It's better for the NW if they think he's dead for the moment. They're about to have a great deal on their plates to deal with, never mind Benjen's whereabouts.

And before anyone says Benjen would never desert the Watch .. it's not desertion if he's acting for the benefit of the watch and the realms of men...even if the NW wouldn't understand at the moment . Mormont himself tells Sam , at Craster's after the Fist , that the NW had forgotten it's true purpose..

Benjen left the wall legitimately with the stated purpose of finding out what was going on.. but on any ranging, if one discovered something was going on that would threaten the wall and the NW , it would be expected that one would deal with it,if possible .. and return when it was over. I'm sure Benjen has every intention of returning , when he's done what he can.

[King Tyrion VIII]

I think Theon did recognize him, but assumes he's one of the ghosts in Winterfell. This is why he's oddly unafraid ( e.g. to remove his glove - a ghost isn't going to tell Ramsay, so there'll be no repercussions)..and this is why he never mentions the HM to Roose when he's being interrogated.

Yes, the cache at the fist was buried recently. The NW cloak it was wrapped in was new,strong fabric. ..damp , but not decayed.

Going back to Mormont's raven repeating " Dead,dead, dead". You have to think that if Benjen has met up with the CoTF, and he's on a mission for them..( Winterfell,or LoAW, or both ).. It's better for the NW if they think he's dead for the moment. They're about to have a great deal on their plates to deal with, never mind Benjen's whereabouts.

And before anyone says Benjen would never desert the Watch .. it's not desertion if he's acting for the benefit of the watch and the realms of men...even if the NW wouldn't understand at the moment . Mormont himself tells Sam , at Craster's after the Fist , that the NW had forgotten it's true purpose..

Benjen left the wall legitimately with the stated purpose of finding out what was going on.. but on any ranging, if one discovered something was going on that would threaten the wall and the NW , it would be expected that one would deal with it,if possible .. and return when it was over. I'm sure Benjen has every intention of returning , when he's done what he can.

What mission from COTF would send Benjen to Winterfell?

[DireMaker]

"there must always be a Stark in Winterfell". Plus there is some magic in that place, mainly the crypts, who knows perhaps the "hidden" passages hook up with the CoTF tunnel network? What about the roots of the heart tree? Could it be they plan to have Bran sit the wierwood throne or whatever right under Winterfell. Lots of possibilities as to what the CoTF could want of Benjen through Winterfell.

[King Tyrion VIII]

I'm not so sure someone could survive the joutney in the tunnels. Someone said once that it would take weeks to walk that distance and the person would run out of oxygen.

[DireMaker]

I thought it was Gendels children? Not an oxygen thing. But iv'e been wrong once or twice :eek: . And if anyone could help him find his way through, it'd be the CoTF, as, after-all, they are their tunnels.... But it's all speculation. Personally I like the idea of Benjen becoming the Lord of Winterfell at Jon's behest, as i DO NOT think Jon will EVER leave the NW. Can't tell you why, just my gut. He is at peace there, and has risen to LC, he won't leave them, no chance. But he could tell Benjen to go claim WF (as it is his by rights, should he be allowed) and start the whole "new gift" idea him and Ned had....... Maaaaaaybe?

[Nuncle Kraken]

I thought it was Gendels children? Not an oxygen thing. But iv'e been wrong once or twice :eek: . And if anyone could help him find his way through, it'd be the CoTF, as, after-all, they are their tunnels.... But it's all speculation. Personally I like the idea of Benjen becoming the Lord of Winterfell at Jon's behest, as i DO NOT think Jon will EVER leave the NW. Can't tell you why, just my gut. He is at peace there, and has risen to LC, he won't leave them, no chance. But he could tell Benjen to go claim WF (as it is his by rights, should he be allowed) and start the whole "new gift" idea him and Ned had....... Maaaaaaybe?

I've never heard "getting repeatedly stabbed by your subordinates" described as "at peace" before. :)

[DireMaker]

Truth to that, but he got elected he feels the vows deep, and he knows his "bastardry" doesn't matter. He is stabbed because of "usurpers" (people who think he isn't leading correctly) and if you take an objective view, maybe kinda have a leg to stand on. But regardless Jon is in the NW through and through, the black runs deep in his veins.

[Nuncle Kraken]

Truth to that, but he got elected he feels the vows deep, and he knows his "bastardry" doesn't matter. He is stabbed because of "usurpers" (people who think he isn't leading correctly) and if you take an objective view, maybe kinda have a leg to stand on. But regardless Jon is in the NW through and through, the black runs deep in his veins.

I agree that Jon is serious about the Watch, his new brothers, his vows, and the battle for the dawn. I just thought saying he was at peace was odd considering he had just been stabbed repeatedly. I thought that's what you were saying, but wanted to be sure. Lol

[Red Raven]

I don't think Mormont sent Benjen on a secret mission. I think the original mission was as he said it was, otherwise Mormont would have left a letter or instructions with someone in case something happened to him. If he was on a secret mission, it would have been incredibly irresponsible of Mormont not to tell at least some of his other watchmen what Benjen was really up to before sending them out on the Great Ranging to look for him.

I think Benjen and his party were looking for Royce and other missing rangers, found something along the way, left the obsidian bundle, perhaps made it fairly far into the LoAW, got help from the CotF at some point, but something befell him and he is now dead.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Why would Benjen, a character that had already disappeared by the time the catch was found, be the one to have placed it, when he know for certain there's already an ex-NW man sneaking around: Coldhands.

There's no evidence for it to have been Benjen's cloak, because he simply wouldn't have taken it off since he'd still be needing it if he were alive, and so the cloak must have come from dead NW men in either case.

[TheAwesomeVargoHoat]

Bloodraven may for some reason want Jon to believe Benjen is dead.

Perhaps for the same reason he didn't want Sam to tell Jon that Bran was still alive.

[bemused]

What mission from COTF would send Benjen to Winterfell?

Like DireMaker, I think there's importance in the family saying, " There must always be a Stark in Winterfell ", that it's tied to whatever magic has been woven into the place, but though the Starks remember the saying , they've forgotten the reason for it over the centuries. There could be multiple reasons but one is , I think, a secret passage linking the outside to the crypts ..but one that only a Stark could find or open ( like the Black Gate works for the NW ). Bran the Builder built both the Wall and WF. It makes sense to me that he would use some of the same kinds of magic.... If you believe the Great Northern Conspiracy exists , such a tunnel would be very useful in retaking WF. (Among other things) And I further assume that having a Stark in WF is important in the struggle against the Others.

But I don't think he made it back all the way through Gendel and Gorne's tunnels, because I think there are signs that he spoke with at least the Liddle on the way..explaining the Liddle's "watch only" attitude to Bran.

Though I don't think the NW cloak has to be Benjen's ,it could be , because I don't think that NW cloak would be the best thing to be wearing if he was moving south on foot.

[Lady Lea]

Thanks for starting this thread OP - very interesting arguments.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

<< snip >>

King Tyrion VIII - Just read through this thread again (I think I read it when initially posted, before comments); wanted to say good job. Nice summary of thoughts and evidence.

[OutlawSarge]

like this theory more than benjen being the hooded man. plus, i totally forgot all about the size of the party he left with. also, there has to be some conclusion to this. just because grrm went away from this story doesn't mean we will not find out what ever happened to benjen.

[Abyssalix]

My theory on Benjen

It's unlikely that benjen will be the prologue of the winds of winter (according to the pattern of the previous book's prologues, ice ,fire , ice fire, ice and book 6 will be fire)

I believe that Benjen is already back and he's almost at the wall, probably somewhere in tWoW he will reach the wall and find out about the mutiny, and I honestly think he will be murdered before he get's to tell them about whats coming.

Crackpot theory on benjen

the lands of always winter are connected to ashhai and benjen finds his way to mereen to steal a dragon and go back to the lands of always winter.

[King Jackoffery]

Really great theory. I don't think LC Mormont knew about it though, if Mance and benjen had made common ground and Benjen told Mormont, why would he launch a massive assault on the wildlings?

[King Jackoffery]

Or maybe the assault was intended for the others?? Mormont was open to taking a dragonglass dagger??