The impulsive Cat (spoilers on book three)

[Hellswung]

Yeah, so loyal that he send his mounted troops away and murdered some of Edmure's guards and murdered prisoners against Robb's commands. Not Catelyn's fault he went crazy in his desire for vengeance.

So about releasing Jaime - he was pretty useless as a hostage and at the time it looked like

1) Robb needed a heir at hand ASAP

2) Stannis was preparing to attack the capital and looked likely to win, which would've meant the almost certain death of Sansa and Arya

3) Jaime was pretty useless as a hostage

Rickard's despicable actions aren't Catelyn's fault, it's all on him.

Thank you. I didn't ask about your opinions on the execution of Karstark. I am simply stating my feelings.

Secondly, as for Jaime being a useless hostage, I already made my point clear in an earlier post. I dont see you answering those points.

[ejhawman]

I didn't really understand what she was doing on my first read. Later I came to see she was a wrecking ball to the North's fortunes.

The Catnapping: it's not so much she took Tyrion prisoner as that she wouldn't listen to him or try to see what motive he would have in trying to kill Bran. She should have smelled something wrong and took him to KL to hash things out with the King.

Returning Jaime is painful, in that she was acting sympathetically as far as readers are concerned, a grieving mother trying to recover the one child she knows is still alive but out of her hands. The incident is a good argument against taking women along to war, or at least listening to them. She should not have had the authority to release Jaime; the guards should have had orders to only accept instructions from Robb.

We haven't seen that much of Lady Stoneheart, but we can hope that she is rid of earlier weaknesses. Her flaw now will be the other direction: too little mercy rather than too much. But that will be more entertaining to read.

[Hellswung]

Attempting to kill their young son, was an affront to the Starks that they MUST answer. See I can make exact same argument.

They needn't answer it in a battle field not there choosing. Thus it was stupid to capture Tyrion.

[Minsc]

They needn't answer it in a battle field not there choosing. Thus it was stupid to capture Tyrion.

What? How does that negate my point?

She was forced into the situation of either arresting Tyrion or risking more danger upon herself and her family.

I didn't really understand what she was doing on my first read. Later I came to see she was a wrecking ball to the North's fortunes.

Both Robb and Ned did more harm for the North's fortunes then Catelyn.

[Twist]

...The incident is a good argument against taking women along to war, or at least listening to them....

.....

Words escape me! Unbelievable.....

[juanml82]

Yeah, so loyal that he send his mounted troops away and murdered some of Edmure's guards and murdered prisoners against Robb's commands. Not Catelyn's fault he went crazy in his desire for vengeance.

So about releasing Jaime - it's not impulsive or stupid at all given the situation at the time:

1) Robb needed a heir at hand ASAP

2) Stannis was preparing to attack the capital and looked likely to win, which would've meant the almost certain death of Sansa and Arya

3) Jaime was pretty useless as a hostage

Rickard's despicable actions aren't Catelyn's fault, it's all on him.

Rickard's actions happened because Catelyn undermined Robb's authority. Jaime might or might not have been a useless hostage, but the thing is, in war torn Westeros, that's up to the King to decide. By going against him, fully aware the King can't punish her severely, she's causing Robb and by extension the Northern war effort a great harm.

Attempting to kill their young son, was an affront to the Starks that they MUST answer. See I can make exact same argument. Simply, the Lannisters didn't need to respond to Tywin's arrest by invading the Riverlands. Instead, Tywin could act like a grown up and go in front of Robert to demand insight into why his son was arrested.

The difference is, as far as the Starks know (which is wrong), the Lannisters acted in private and nobody knows the Starks were slighted. Catelyn publicly slights House Lannister. This means the Starks have a lot more options to respond, because their reputation isn't at stake as far as the rest of the realm is concerned, while Catelyn's kidnapping of Tyrion puts House Lannister's reputation at risk, as far as the rest of the realm is concerned.

In other words, it's a pissing contest, but one is held in secret and the other isn't.

[Hellswung]

Attempting to kill their young son, was an affront to the Starks that they MUST answer. See I can make exact same argument. Simply, the Lannisters didn't need to respond to Tywin's arrest by invading the Riverlands. Instead, Tywin could act like a grown up and go in front of Robert to demand insight into why his son was arrested.

Actually, if it is like you said the Lannisters cast the first stone, then by all means raise an army. Why capture Tyrion?

If you are gonna play against the big players, be prepared to play big or don't play.

Don't tell me they raised an army. No, we are talking about Cat's actions here.

[Hellswung]

Rickard's actions happened because Catelyn undermined Robb's authority. Jaime might or might not have been a useless hostage, but the thing is, in war torn Westeros, that's up to the King to decide. By going against him, fully aware the King can't punish her severely, she's causing Robb and by extension the Northern war effort a great harm.

The difference is, as far as the Starks know (which is wrong), the Lannisters acted in private and nobody knows the Starks were slighted. Catelyn publicly slights House Lannister. This means the Starks have a lot more options to respond, because their reputation isn't at stake as far as the rest of the realm is concerned, while Catelyn's kidnapping of Tyrion puts House Lannister's reputation at risk, as far as the rest of the realm is concerned.

In other words, it's a pissing contest, but one is held in secret and the other isn't.

Yes, you sir have put it a lot more elegantly than I did.

[Minsc]

The difference is, as far as the Starks know (which is wrong), the Lannisters acted in private and nobody knows the Starks were slighted. Catelyn publicly slights House Lannister. This means the Starks have a lot more options to respond, because their reputation isn't at stake as far as the rest of the realm is concerned, while Catelyn's kidnapping of Tyrion puts House Lannister's reputation at risk, as far as the rest of the realm is concerned.

In other words, it's a pissing contest, but one is held in secret and the other isn't.

Tywin has more options to respond also rather then just force. While, according to all knowledge available to them at the time Catelyn allowing Tyrion to return to King's Landing after seeing her would place her and her family in danger. Seeing how the Lannisters were plotting against them and the king.

[Dicer]

Now that Minsc and David Selig are here, this discussion can go for another 10 pages :)

It's not just Jaime's worth as a hostage, it's Jaime's worth as a war commander that has to be taken into consideration as well. By depriving the Lannisters of Jaime, Robb was taking away an asset. Handing him back gave them another Lannister to take charge and lead the war.

[David Selig]

On top of that, SHE IS MOTHER TO THE KING. The Northmen joint swords and died for the Stark cause, don't you think some of them ought to feel emotionally affronted by this selfish action?

Yes, selfish. Because when someone put their needs in front of others when others needs are equally important, it is selfish. That is no way a royal family who wish to keep their reign would act.

Funny, because that's exactly how every royal family (apart from modern constitutional monarchies and even there it's dubious) in history has acted and usually got away with it. That's kind of the point of monarchy and feudalism - the needs of those in power are deemed way more important than the needs of the rest. Hence for example there are wars because a king or a high noble gets killed, kidnapped, threatened or even insulted, but if 10 peasants gets murdered, nobody in power gives a damn.

[Hellswung]

What? How does that negate my point?

She was forced into the situation of either arresting Tyrion or risking more danger upon herself and her family.

Both Robb and Ned did more harm for the North's fortunes then Catelyn.

juanml82 has answered this more beautifully than me. The Starks had more options.

[Minsc]

Actually, if it is like you said the Lannisters cast the first stone, then by all means raise an army. Why capture Tyrion?

If you are gonna play against the big players, be prepared to play big or don't play.

Don't tell me they raised an army. No, we are talking about Cat's actions here.

Because neither Ned or Catelyn aren't militaristic dicks that resort to attacking innocent smallfolks to get vengeance when there are other options.

[Minsc]

Now that Minsc and David Selig are here, the arguments and discussions can go around in circles for 10 pages :) Have fun guys!

Seeing I have had you repeatably argue that King's Landing is only made up of around five people, I would say you shouldn't be talking.

It's not just Jaime's worth as a hostage, it's Jaime's worth as a war commander that has to be taken into consideration as well. By depriving the Lannisters of Jaime, Robb was taking away an asset. Handing him back gave them another Lannister to take charge and lead the war.

Who cannot forget the mighty might of Jaime's military knowledge, of where he got himself owned by someone half his own age.

Meanwhile, with Sansa the Starks could have attempted to marry her to Willas or Robin in an attempt to convince those kingdoms to side with their cause.

[Blueberry Stark]

Returning Jaime is painful, in that she was acting sympathetically as far as readers are concerned, a grieving mother trying to recover the one child she knows is still alive but out of her hands. The incident is a good argument against taking women along to war, or at least listening to them. She should not have had the authority to release Jaime; the guards should have had orders to only accept instructions from Robb.

Would you care to elaborate on how a fictional character's debatable releasing of a hostage in order to reunite with her daughters translates into a "good argument against taking women along to war, or at least listening to them" in any kind of a RL situation? How many war commanders have their grieving mothers with them, nowadays, during combat?

[Hellswung]

Funny, because that's exactly how every royal family (apart from modern constitutional monarchies and even there it's dubious) in history has acted and usually got away with it. That's kind of the point of monarchy and feudalism - the needs of those in power are deemed way more important than the needs of the rest. Hence for example there are wars because a king or a high noble gets killed, kidnapped, threatened or even insulted, but if 10 peasants gets murdered, nobody in power gives a damn.

Right, I am sure they paid for it eventually. Once selfish becomes a systematic characteristic that defines you, you gonna find your subjects turning disloyal at a rapid rate. It is science. Particularly so for warring factions that are competing for dominance.

[juanml82]

What? How does that negate my point?

She was forced into the situation of either arresting Tyrion or risking more danger upon herself and her family.

Not necesarily. The Tournament of the Hand allowed the Starks a great opportunity to call for reinforcements without drawing attention. Catelyn could have stopped at any friendly holdfast to ask for an escort in her way if she felt she was personally threatened, and send ravens to the North to send men, and lots of them "to the tournament" if she felt (rightly) that Ned had gone south with too few guards (a thought which never crosses her mind).

I mean, if Renly was able to muster about a hundred men because of all the friendly nobles who attended the tournament, who's going to think too much if two or three hundred northerners, between knights, squires, heavy lancers archers and men at arms, travel to King's Landing for the tournament? It's in their liege Lord's honor to boot! And of course, that happens to reinforce Ned's guard.

Imagine, when shit hits the fan, if Ned goes to that brothel escorted by fifty men instead of the poor escort he took? Or if when Renly advices Ned to strike, he points out between the both of them they can get between three and four hundred men? Or would Ned rely on LF and the gold cloaks if he has three hundred loyal men with him? Would Slynt be that easy to bribe if there was a parity in numbers inside the throne room?

[Dicer]

Do people actually think that Cat arresting Tyrion was a good decision? Or the right one?

[Sordelor]

I'm not going to discuss about her releasing Jaime, but can anyone tell me why she sended Cleos with Jaime and Brienne?

[juanml82]

Because neither Ned or Catelyn aren't militaristic dicks that resort to attacking innocent smallfolks to get vengeance when there are other options.

Well, since Cersei Lannister of all people military defeated Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister survived both Ned and Cat, including pretty much winning the war between Starks and Lannisters, I'm going to say Tywin is likely smarter than Cat and Ned.