[SPOILERS]Is the main theme of ASOIAF missed by A large amount of readers?

[Arya'sSanctuary]

I was going to mention that the series conclusion was going to define a thematic conclusion for us, but someone already said it! What makes the series compelling is 1) the relative completeness of the world we are immersed in, which is where the main characters vs background characters come in and 2) the way the more important characters do change as the story progresses. And call me a romantic, but I do believe in redemption---not that your previous sins are wiped away, necessarily, but that you have been able to evolve to a better form of yourself. Don't most of us aspire to be a better version of ourselves? If not, what sad sad lives we lead.

[Loralei Pyke]

Yes, but those dualistic opposing forces are jointly threatening (perhaps) to destroy the world between them, unless (perhaps) restrained by some moderating influence. So who knows what role the theme of compassion may play.

I think the idea of extremes is a theme that permeates the whole series. I agree with the above post, but would also extend that anti-duality to character traits:

Ned's big failing was not that he was so honorable, but that (until the end) he would not allow himself to temper that honor with other virtues, such as compassion. When he kept a secret, he kept it to the exclusion of all else. Maybe he should have told Catelyn that Jon was not his (I assume R+L=J) and saved a lot of pain for all

Catelyn is prideful. Despite the love she bears for her own family, she can't get past her wounded pride at Ned's supposed infidelity and accept/love Jon. This is a major downfall and the thing for which I find it hardest to forgive her.

Stannis believes in the law to the exclusion of all else. He cuts off his nose (Davos' fingers) to spite his face. I believe he will eventually lose Davos' loyalty.

Davos is loyal above else - and may very well lose his family because of this.

Melissandre is devout to the nth degree - and willing to do any heinous thing to justify what she believes are the desired ends.

Sansa started out silly over courtly love. Arya is pursuing revenge above all else. Brienne took the ideals of courtly love/chivalry too literally in their most shallow sense until she met Jaime.

Jaime started with absolute belief in fulfilling his vows until they didn't make any sense (with Aerys) and then became so cynical he didn't care about anything except his twin sister, which I believe he sees as almost his other half.

I believe the characters who have become more successful over time are those that are tempering their absolute virtues with other virtues. Jon, Dany, Jaime, Brienne, and maybe Sansa. And those that don't are dead - or will be.

Understanding that life is not bi-polar is part of wisdom, and we are watching GRRM's characters become more or less wise across the story arc.

I think that compassion is one of the main temporizing virtues that GRRM values, but too much compassion is also shown not to be good - Jon could have pardoned Janos Slynt when he caved in and started begging for his life, but he had the wisdom to see that it was almost certainly going to go badly if he let him live and so he decisively dealt with him!

I believe there are more examples of my point, but I will stop there and see what others might think.

[Ludd]

I do not think that Ned would have been wise to confide in Catelyn. If Jon was really L+R=J then Catelyn would have regarded his presence as a threat to her own children and almost certainly would have had him removed or even killed. Catelyn could NOT be trusted with such a secret - especially since when Jon was born she was still just a 17 year old girl, and still very much a southerner. Perhaps 10 years or so on she had the wisdom to deal with it, but recall it was Catelyn who persuaded Ned to become Hand of the King, clearly a foolish decision. She then kidnapped Tyrion another politically foolish decision based on emotion.

Ned's first mistake was listening to Catelyn. He should have used Bran's fall as an excuse to stay home. He should have sent Catelyn and Sansa to KL to marry Joff and advised Robert to make Stannis his Hand

Ned's second mistake (and a big one) was to forget his Northern roots. He should NEVER have killed Lady, and I think it is for this act of "kinslaying" that caused the Old Gods to turn on him. A head for a head

His third mistake was to trust LF

His fourth to be kind to Cersai and her kids

His fifth was not to realise how dangerous Sansa had become and to blab his plans to her - this links to his second mistake ie Sansa was no longer a Stark, Bran understood this even at 8 years old.

However Ned was not a bad man or even a fool for making these mistakes - a little naive at most.

[Loralei Pyke]

I do not think that Ned would have been wise to confide in Catelyn. If Jon was really L+R=J then Catelyn would have regarded his presence as a threat to her own children and almost certainly would have had him removed or even killed. Catelyn could NOT be trusted with such a secret - especially since when Jon was born she was still just a 17 year old girl, and still very much a southerner. Perhaps 10 years or so on she had the wisdom to deal with it, but recall it was Catelyn who persuaded Ned to become Hand of the King, clearly a foolish decision. She then kidnapped Tyrion another politically foolish decision based on emotion.

Ned's first mistake was listening to Catelyn. He should have used Bran's fall as an excuse to stay home. He should have sent Catelyn and Sansa to KL to marry Joff and advised Robert to make Stannis his Hand

Ned's second mistake (and a big one) was to forget his Northern roots. He should NEVER have killed Lady, and I think it is for this act of "kinslaying" that caused the Old Gods to turn on him. A head for a head

His third mistake was to trust LF

His fourth to be kind to Cersai and her kids

His fifth was not to realise how dangerous Sansa had become and to blab his plans to her - this links to his second mistake ie Sansa was no longer a Stark, Bran understood this even at 8 years old.

However Ned was not a bad man or even a fool for making these mistakes - a little naive at most.

I would never call Ned a "bad" man - just too focused on his honor as the absolute guiding light of his life. Whenever it is a choice between honor and something else (including compassion, and also his better judgment), honor must always win.

I agree that he probably shouldn't have told Catelyn at the beginning, but considering how much their relationship deepened, perhaps later. But I think his promise to Lyanna kept him from doing this.

I think the real reason he went to KL is because Robert asked him - he appealed to his honor something to the effect of, 'you helped me win this chair, now help me keep it' (don't have the books with me). Robert wasn't going to let him off the hook.

He had to obey Robert by killing Lady, and his honor required him to do it personally (she was part of the Starks) - or go against his King - or lie (which his honor would not allow him to do). He could have argued more, but...

Trusting LF, and Sansa was poor judgment and probably thinking that others lived by the same honor code. And telling Cersei, giving her a chance to save her children's lives, was also a misplaced honorable intention.

I don't think that honor is foolish, or that it must be naive. But, if it is the ONLY standard that is ever allowed to be ascendant, then it is likely to be a problem/disaster depending on the circumstances.

Perhaps the only thing that should have primacy is Love, and love does not always involve doing the soft things. Love can be smart and farseeing, taking many things into account, as well as being soft in the near term.

[Arya'sSanctuary]

Loralei Pyke: "I believe the characters who have become more successful over time are those that are tempering their absolute virtues with other virtues. Jon, Dany, Jaime, Brienne, and maybe Sansa. And those that don't are dead - or will be."

:agree: !!! As I read through the series, analogies of iron and steel abound: iron is brittle, rusts and breaks, tempered steel is flexible, more useful and enduring. I would add tyrion and bran to your list, and even arya--even though they are going down a darker path for now.

[HouseFrancis93]

I personally find there to many reoccurring ideas in this series, but i think this correlates to his idea of reality and the bitter truth of human faultiness. Even in his other works, short stories, novels etc (and you can tell in interviews) he find its important to show that your hero is not perfect. He wants to show rather than tell the reason that there is no battle between universal good and evil, but that that battle occurs within each individual... and sometimes good people loose to the evil inside them. And then again he wants you to see that sometimes an answer can't be black or white, but winds up gray.

[Minsc]

Perhaps 10 years or so on she had the wisdom to deal with it, but recall it was Catelyn who persuaded Ned to become Hand of the King, clearly a foolish decision. She then kidnapped Tyrion another politically foolish decision based on emotion.

Ned's first mistake was listening to Catelyn. He should have used Bran's fall as an excuse to stay home. He should have sent Catelyn and Sansa to KL to marry Joff and advised Robert to make Stannis his Hand

Just want to mention, that Ned himself made the final decision himself to go to King's Landing thus he is responsible for that decision. Secondly, even Maester Luwin agreed with Catelyn she first recommended that he go down South. Thirdly, Catelyn openly begged Ned to stay after Bran's fall thus further demonstrating how it was his decision. Finally, Catelyn even if she persuaded him to go down South isn't responsible for his misfortunes as she can hardly be expected that he would continually bungle almost every decision handed to him while down there.

Additionally, Catelyn didn't arrest Tyrion because of emotion. Instead, she didn't after a cost-benefit analysis based on the knowledge she had at the time about how he might be a threat to her or her family if he returned to KL after discovering she had visited KL in secret.

Also, what would be the logic for Ned to send his wife(who would likely refuse to leave Bran's bedside) and daughter into an area that he thought was dangerous and where they would have no power?

His fifth was not to realise how dangerous Sansa had become and to blab his plans to her - this links to his second mistake ie Sansa was no longer a Stark, Bran understood this even at 8 years old.

How in the hell is Sansa no longer a Stark?

[Fire and Lemoncakes]

I think that the individual trapped into an environment which allows for little individual freedom is the most glossed over theme in ASoIaF.

Pursuit of happiness and trying for self-fulfilment clash with the social institutions of Westeros. Given that, deeds aimed to realize these goals mostly result in failure or are detrimental to other people. Acting according to individual desires is therefore often seen as stupid or selfishly evil ignoring the inherent good of personal happiness.