Cersei and her employment of Qyburn

[Knight Of Winter]

OP, I think you're way overestimating number of Cersei's fans and defenders. In all of debates I've seen so far, most posters agree she is horrible person. Sure, many sympathize with her because of her abusive marriage and patriarchal nature of Westerosi society, but it doesn't change their evaluation of Cersei as chacacter.

[Blueberry Stark]

Cersei has become the most hated figure for me in the whole series...don't get me wrong I want the boltons and freys to suffer long deaths and their houses to go the ways of the tarbecks and casterlys. Cersei beleives herself to be the smartest person in the room and acts without any type of thought to how her decisions will affect others/just doesn't care. Cersei's refusal to pay the iron bank of Bravvos is probably one of the dumbest decision made in the series, after ned's decision to Trust LF and Robb's belief that walder frey had actually forgiven him. My mst anticipated moment in this series is going to be when cersei realizes that her whole world is falling apart and she has burned every bridge and has no way to stop her inevitable downfall. In all honesty I want her to be sold as a sex slave to sallador saan and his pirates...a little harsh but she deserves it

Wouldn't it be more fitting if it were Aurane Waters' pirates?

Gentlemen (because I doubt women would say this), it's disgusting to wish rape on someone, imo, even if he or she is a terrible person. If Cersei loses her life, or is somehow permanently imprisoned by the end of the series, I believe that would be a fitting end for all of her cruelties. Until that time, however, I hope that we get to enjoy more of her crazy antics, her revenge on the High Septon, and her hilarious POV. She's my favorite villain in the series because she is so amusingly selfish and narcissistic without even realizing it. I just don't get wishing sexual slavery on anyone, even an awful fictional person. That's something Cersei would do.

Wrt Qyburn asking for women, I always assumed that he just needed women for his experiments; of course, it's very likely that Qyburn is raping these women. I was just wondering if it was made explicit that Q rapes them.

[Sansa_Stark]

Okay, maybe I overspoke with my original accusation. But when a creepy old guy who rides with a notorious mercinary band asks solely for women, you have to think something perverted sexually is going on. Cersei didn't seem to care regardless. Why it seemed more of a sexual thing for me because Cersei told Qyburn. "Take two if it pleases you." During the whole.puppet show fiasco. I am not sure why Qyburn would be so pleased but maybe I am taking too much from one word.

[Blueberry Stark]

Okay, maybe I overspoke with my original accusation. But when a creepy old guy who rides with a notorious mercinary band asks solely for women, you have to think something perverted sexually is going on. Cersei didn't seem to care regardless. Why it seemed more of a sexual thing for me because Cersei told Qyburn. "Take two if it pleases you." During the whole.puppet show fiasco. I am not sure why Qyburn would be so pleased but maybe I am taking too much from one word.

You're probably right that he rapes them; they just probably have the added fun of being experimented on as well. I remember when Qyburn sends Pia to Jaime, he says something along the lines of her being eager or willing to please (I forget the exact words). That suggested to me that he was happy that he didn't have to rape her forcibly, but let's face it, Pia hardly had a choice in the matter I'm sure.

[Lucidize]

As to why Qyburn specifcally asks for women, I guess it's a sick sexual thing, but it never crossed my mind that he's actually raping these women. I think that he's a sadist and enjoys torturing them, kind of like Ramsay (with the only difference that Ramsay doesn't seem to care about the gender of his victims).

And Cersei? Well, she's probably the biggest egoist in Westeros. She has zero empathy. She just doesn't care about anything as long as it doesn't have an immediate effect on her. And, of course, all of those rash decisions she makes because of this tend to have negative consequences for her in the long run.

In addition, she seems to think that she has to be ruthless to be a good leader like Tywin, so she accepts Qyburn's cruelties because of that, too.

[Blueberry Stark]

As to why Qyburn specifcally asks for women, I guess it's a sick sexual thing, but it never crossed my mind that he's actually raping these women. I think that he's a sadist and enjoys torturing them, kind of like Ramsay (with the only difference that Ramsay doesn't seem to care about the gender of his victims).

And Cersei? Well, she's probably the biggest egoist in Westeros. She has zero empathy. She just doesn't care about anything as long as it doesn't have an immediate effect on her. And, of course, all of those rash decisions she makes because of this tend to have negative consequences for her in the long run.

In addition, she seems to think that she has to be ruthless to be a good leader like Tywin, so she accepts Qyburn's cruelties because of that, too.

I don't see him as a sadist, just as a completely immoral person who places no value on human life. He seems to really want to experiment on living persons in order to further his medical/scientific knowledge, but not because he enjoys their suffering. He is indifferent to human suffering, which makes him monstrous, but I think he's a different kind of monster than Ramsay, for instance. Sure, he tortures the Blue Bard singer for Cersei, but I don't recall him enjoying.

[Martell Spy]

Cersei actually wants the power for its own sake, and she admits this to herself in Feast. She actually gets jealous of Tommen. She thought about how long she had waited to be Regent, basically saying it was her "turn" and she wasn't going to let Tommen take that away.

[Lucidize]

I don't see him as a sadist, just as a completely immoral person who places no value on human life. He seems to really want to experiment on living persons in order to further his medical/scientific knowledge, but not because he enjoys their suffering. He is indifferent to human suffering, which makes him monstrous, but I think he's a different kind of monster than Ramsay, for instance. Sure, he tortures the Blue Bard singer for Cersei, but I don't recall him enjoying.

Yeah, but the blue bard is a man and I believe that Qyburn only enjoys torturing women. We haven't seen him doing that yet, so we don't know whether or not he enjoys it.

For his experiments, he asks specifically for women. If he was experimenting for purely scientific reasons (to understand the human body and so on), shouldn't there be at least some men amomg his victims?

[falcotron]

For his experiments, he asks specifically for women. If he was experimenting for purely scientific reasons (to understand the human body and so on), shouldn't there be at least some men amomg his victims?

That depends on the experiments. If, say, he was trying to learn the last secret he needed to build a synthetic womb for Frankengregor's rebirth, studying male bodies wouldn't help very much.

[Lucidize]

That depends on the experiments. If, say, he was trying to learn the last secret he needed to build a synthetic womb for Frankengregor's rebirth, studying male bodies wouldn't help very much.

A synthetic womb? Considering that Westeros' medicine is more or less on the same level as the medicine of medieval Europe, that seems to be too advanced. That' s not even possible with our modern day medicine. If Qyburn really knows magic (which is implied when he talks about Marwyn the Maege) he doesn't need a synthetic womb. If he practices blood magic, he only needs to follow the "only death pays for life" doctrine, and in that case, any person would do.

[The Mountain That Flies]

I hate to seem contradictory for no reason, but if Ser Robert Strong winds up coming through for Cersei in her trial, doesn't that mean her letting Qyburn run amok with his experimentation was beneficial to her?

While Gregor's body was (as far we know) the only one used to make Bob Strong, his torture of various prisoners was likely to complete his studies on how exactly life works. It's probably not much of a stretch to say he wouldn't have been able to reanimate Gregor without the knowledge gained from these experiments, and so Cersei constantly sending him victims may actually come back to save her.

And in regards to Qyburn raping his victims, there is nothing in his interactions with Jaime, Brienne, or Cersei that gives any indication of him being a sadist. He is an amoral scientist who places human life far below human knowledge in terms of importance, and so doesn't feel one or another about committing horrible deeds so long as they increase what he knows. He rode with a horrible band of sellswords because that was the only way he could find employment pre-Cersei, and once he was in King's Landing he only harms people when he "needs" to experiment on them or Cersei explicitly orders him to hurt them.

[falcotron]

A synthetic womb? Considering that Westeros' medicine is more or less on the same level as the medicine of medieval Europe, that seems to be too advanced.

I don't mean some kind of advanced bio-medical incubator, but something magical.

Women create life—and without needing to kill. How does that work? I doubt they understand molecular genetics and embryology in Westeros. Each religion probably has an answer, and the Maesters probably suspect all the religions are wrong but still have no idea what the right answer is. So, maybe Qyburn aims to find out: to discover the Principle of Pure Creation. If he has to chop up a few women's women-parts to do it, so be it. When he succeeds, that'll show the fools at the Citadel, they called him mad, MAD!, but who will be laughing last? Qyburn!

Almost nobody, in our world or his, would agree with what he's doing, even if there is a chance of it paying off. Which is exactly why he's not a Maester anymore.

Of course that's not the only possibility. He could just be using the same old blood magic as everyone else, and it only works if he sacrifices women. Or he could get off sexually on torturing or killing women. Or he could be raping them, not for pleasure, but to get them pregnant so he can experiment on fetuses. Who knows? He's a mad scientist, and we haven't seen the inside of his laboratory.

[Blueberry Stark]

I hate to seem contradictory for no reason, but if Ser Robert Strong winds up coming through for Cersei in her trial, doesn't that mean her letting Qyburn run amok with his experimentation was beneficial to her?

While Gregor's body was (as far we know) the only one used to make Bob Strong, his torture of various prisoners was likely to complete his studies on how exactly life works. It's probably not much of a stretch to say he wouldn't have been able to reanimate Gregor without the knowledge gained from these experiments, and so Cersei constantly sending him victims may actually come back to save her.

And in regards to Qyburn raping his victims, there is nothing in his interactions with Jaime, Brienne, or Cersei that gives any indication of him being a sadist. He is an amoral scientist who places human life far below human knowledge in terms of importance, and so doesn't feel one or another about committing horrible deeds so long as they increase what he knows. He rode with a horrible band of sellswords because that was the only way he could find employment pre-Cersei, and once he was in King's Landing he only harms people when he "needs" to experiment on them or Cersei explicitly orders him to hurt them.

Good point about Robert Strong benefiting Cersei, and I suppose from POV her still being alive benefits her children.

We know from what Qyburn said to Jaime that he had sex with Pia. I would call this rape because she has no choice, and I seriously doubt she was aroused by Qyburn's old ass. Some people may try to argue that she was a prostitute of sorts, but I think she was a girl making the best of a bad situation because she knew that she was going to be used sexually either way. Anyway, my point is that Qyburn may be raping these women too. What we do know is that he is experimenting on living humans to learn more about the human body, and he has learned enough to reanimated a corpse. Idk if we'll learnvmore about what he's doing or not, but I hope not because the mystery makes it more creepy to me.

[jarl the climber]

Well he does give some vague hints. At one point he states the Falsye is alive but no longer capable of feeding herself. How is that possible? Did he remove her arms? Its hard to the purpose in doing this to her beyond sadism and cruelty. Still it was implied that Falsye was barren so her female parts would be useless to him, yet he stated that he had learned much from her I beleive.

[The Mountain That Flies]

We know from what Qyburn said to Jaime that he had sex with Pia. I would call this rape because she has no choice, and I seriously doubt she was aroused by Qyburn's old ass. Some people may try to argue that she was a prostitute of sorts, but I think she was a girl making the best of a bad situation because she knew that she was going to be used sexually either way. Anyway, my point is that Qyburn may be raping these women too. What we do know is that he is experimenting on living humans to learn more about the human body, and he has learned enough to reanimated a corpse. Idk if we'll learnvmore about what he's doing or not, but I hope not because the mystery makes it more creepy to me.

I'm not going to disagree on Qyburn's rape of Pia. A woman who has sex simply to avoid being assaulted isn't having it consensually, thus defining rape.

However, there is a tremendous difference between enjoying the services of an in-house concubine and chaining women up to force yourself on them. Qyburn doesn't seem terribly disposed toward physical violence, and since Pia is, as you said, making the best of a bad situation, it's very likely she acted as though she enjoyed the encounter. None of the women in the dungeons would have likely acted similarly, so Qyburn would have had to physically assault them if he wanted sex. And since he seems to enjoy coupling that at least pretends to be consensual, I would find it far more likely he was using his new position to enjoy the services of King's Landing prostitutes than raping his prisoners.

[Blueberry Stark]

I'm not going to disagree on Qyburn's rape of Pia. A woman who has sex simply to avoid being assaulted isn't having it consensually, thus defining rape.

However, there is a tremendous difference between enjoying the services of an in-house concubine and chaining women up to force yourself on them. Qyburn doesn't seem terribly disposed toward physical violence, and since Pia is, as you said, making the best of a bad situation, it's very likely she acted as though she enjoyed the encounter. None of the women in the dungeons would have likely acted similarly, so Qyburn would have had to physically assault them if he wanted sex. And since he seems to enjoy coupling that at least pretends to be consensual, I would find it far more likely he was using his new position to enjoy the services of King's Landing prostitutes than raping his prisoners.

True, maybe we'll find out more details later, but I kind of hope not. Ramsay has been enough for me, so I'd be happy with Qyburn remaining mysterious.

[Ice and fire freak]

She's gone way past the saving her children ploy,what seems to be driving her is the maggie the frog episode and she's doing all in her power to prevent the younger queen taking everything from her,Qyburn has been used a tool to help her change things in as much as he knows her plans and his helping her anyway he can.

Have to say the Qyburn bits are hard to read,as if the black cells aren't bad enough,the bit where he tells jamie about folk leaving their presence behind creeped me out too,not sure what he feels but it's not all in the name of science his torture of the Blue Bard was pretty rough less.

Can't help think that the real master of whisperers is gonna get to Qyburn,Varys hates magic after all.

[rodrik Cassel]

The reason i got my warning post was a comment made in cersei so it should be clear how i feel about her and her employees

[Arya'sSanctuary]

Cersei is a true narcissist, in its psychological definition. Even her children are merely reflections of her glory, protecting them is just protecting herself. Anything that threatens her is evil and she wipes it out with a sense of ultimate entitlement. Even the passion of her life, Jaime, is merely a reflection of herself. Qyburn is obsequious to her and this pleases her because he is a also (for his own reasons) a convenient disposer of her "problems"--it is a perfect symbiotic relationship. If you have ever known a true narcissist- and I hope you never have--they rip lives apart and manage to successfully play the victim as they forge new relationships to begin the cycle all over again! :eek:

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Raping them would, in its own way, be "normal" and make Qyburn more Like Anyone Else in this setting. Relative to the standards of the setting, it would be the "sane" thing for someone in his position and power to do.

For that reason, I think he's actually not.

Qyburn ain't right upstairs. What does he say about why he lost his chain? "The Maesters cut upon the dead to understand life, so I cut open the living to better understand death." His specific requesting of women for his experiments is absolutely creepy and the reason for it is no doubt something horrible.

He's the mad scientist of the setting, it'd be appropriate for him to be so deep down his path of dark science that he's indifferent to them even as potential objects for his sexual desire (maybe he doesn't even have any?), never mind his indifference to their suffering as human beings which he is inflicting on them in the name of "research". Raping them would impede his work. (Or maybe that IS part of it. Ewww. Squick.) No, Fantasy Mengele is after something else. The idea that he's studying the uterus towards the end of making some facsimile thereof to "hatch" Ser Robert Strongs has tremendous ghoulish horror movie appeal and is the worst thing I can imagine so far, so thanks to Falcotron for introducing that lovely bit of nightmare fuel to this thread. :)

For her part, Cersei employs him because she can reasonably believe he is one of "her people." She's paranoid about the rest of the small council being other people's appointees, i.e. a reflection of someone else's power and influence, not hers. And she's all about being in charge and proving she's in charge. Qyburn is HER appointee, that makes him a good appointee in that he's a reflection of her. (Of course, so was Aurane Waters, and look how that turned out. Hmmmmm...) And Qyburn, for his part, knows where his bread is buttered, who is providing his research grant, and which ass to kiss when his department needs more funding. :) All his policy suggestions in the council meetings are for Cersei's ears and tailored to appeal to her sense of cruelty and "cunning". She gets to feel like she's the master politician and he's her loyal agent, in turn he gets lots of resources, no questions asked, and [until the trial] no deadlines to actually produce anything; a dream research set up, to be sure. :)