Dothraki Weaponcraft

[Jasta11]

Regarding katanas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCr09gLxwyM

(One must hope he didn't pay too much for that. Also, in the comments one mentions the way the sword wielder hacks the bamboo is to blame. If so, sure katanas may be very sharp but that still looks awfully brittle. If you're armor is made up of wood, maybe it's a good sword, but steel plate..?)

Katanas certainly are next to useless against plate. If it can punch through mail (which I'm not sure about), that's the extent of its power against metal armor. It simply wasn't made to face it, and the reason it took so long and was so hard to make was because of the shitty material Japanese smiths had to work with. A knight, nay, a mere man-at-arms would probably beat a Samurai 1v1, assuming the Samurai doesn't get to use its bow obviously.

EDIT: Dagon gets a point for the Shogun II reference.

[Sansa_Stark]

Weren't knights generally much larger than samurai as well?

[franko99]

This is probabbly an even stupiest question, but how could Caggo have a valyrian steel arakh if by the time dothrakies rise in powers the doom already happened? Or does the arakh precede the dothraki civilization?

ETA: Sorry if someone already ask this, but I just didn't read the whole thread since the topic seems to have change to katanas

[Mithras]

This is probabbly an even stupiest question, but how could Caggo have a valyrian steel arakh if by the time dothrakies rise in powers the doom already happened? Or does the arakh precede the dothraki civilization?

ETA: Sorry if someone already ask this, but I just didn't read the whole thread since the topic seems to have change to katanas

The Dothraki came to what is now known as the Dothraki Sea 400 years ago. Most probably they came from far east. They didnot just rise from earth 400 years ago.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

This is probabbly an even stupiest question, but how could Caggo have a valyrian steel arakh if by the time dothrakies rise in powers the doom already happened? Or does the arakh precede the dothraki civilization?

ETA: Sorry if someone already ask this, but I just didn't read the whole thread since the topic seems to have change to katanas

The arakh is unlikely to be a genuine Dothraki invention. It's just too common a design for light cavalry. But today, only the Dothraki fight under these conditions.

[Morienthar]

Weren't knights generally much larger than samurai as well?

Knight's weren't really as big as they are made out to be,The Average height in the middle ages was quite low,I think 166 cm or 168 cm or something.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Knight's weren't really as big as they are made out to be,The Average height in the middle ages was quite low,I think 166 cm or 168 cm or something.

That's across all social classes though. The nobility was taller, thanks to them suffering way less from malnourishment and famine during the growth period. But it doesn't matter as much as it is made out to be.

[Morienthar]

That's across all social classes though. The nobility was taller, thanks to them suffering way less from malnourishment and famine during the growth period. But it doesn't matter as much as it is made out to be.

Not all "Knights" read Heavy Cavalry were nobility,only a select few were and yes the nobility were in general bigger but yeah,size doesn't always matter on a battlefield.

[Lord of Dragonstone]

Well, no one has ever assembled 100K Horselords at once. Drogo's Khal was noted for being unusually large, and it had 40K fighters. And the sheer logistics, again, boggle the mind; you would need thousands of ships to ferry 100K men and at least 200K horses, plus supplies plus non-combatants if it's anything like a migration. Even a quick calculation (assuming 150 men OR 100 horses per ship, and I feel I'm being very generous) makes that at more than 2000 ships. I'm not even sure there are that many vessels in Essos total. Realistically, a Khalassar crossing the Sea would have to be 20-30K strong maximum. I mean, the Golden Company cross with 10K men, mostly foot, and they have loads of problems even if they land in semi-friendly territory. I dare not imagine the sheer logistical comedy that would ensue if the Dothraki and their horses tried to cross and land in enemy waters. Most likely Stannis's fleet detects them and sends them to the bottom at ramming speed anyway.

Not to mention that, even if it does teleport land, keeping 100K men and double the horses supplied is basically impossible. Renly managed to supply 60K because he was in friendly territory and in the most fertile region of Westeros, and most of his soldiers were foot. Cavalry consumes far more food, and a prospective Khal would not be in friendly territory at all, indeed he would need to raid in order to survive, but I'm not sure even the Reach is fertile enough for such a monstruous army. The Vale, North, Westerlands, and Dorne sure as hell aren't. Simple geography dictates these guys are basically immune from any Dothraki attack.

And, as E-Ro is certainly eager to prove, Westerosi armies aren't a bunch of unwashed peasants in leather. Many of them are semi-professional soldiers equipped with decent weapons and and abundance of chainmail, which would stop a curved blade and all but the heaviest of arrows dead in their tracks. A melee between a Westerosi spear/pike wall and unarmored Dothrakis would be a ridiculous massacre, and I'm fairly certain stationary archers (some with longbows) outrange and outmuscle horse archers, not to mention crossbows and their high rate of fire. Against 100K men, Westeros loses, but since such a large force is basically impossible, the probable scenario is more akin to 30K men, which is very much manageable. Jorah was sucking up to Dany when he said Westeros would lose, and he's hardly unbiased anyway.

I did post above that the logistics involved in moving such a massive amount of troops by ship would be pretty much impossible, especially with a culture that is terrified of the sea. I was more speaking from a hypothetical point of view, if an entire Khalasar the size of Drogo's, for instance, were to go in combat against a standard Westerosi army in open combat, I believe the Khalasar would prevail.

Using Mongols as a template, the Mongols were experts at living off the land, and while they'd certainly be restricted from invading areas such as the North, Dorne, or the Vale, I'm not trying to say that they would be able to actually conquer Westeros(because I don't think they can). Areas like the Reach or the Riverlands are probably more fertile than the Dothraki sea, and if they are able to live off the land there then I don't see why the couldn't in the more fertile areas of Westeros.

In the places that E-Ro quoted, the only soldiers mentioned as wearing metal armour were the "mailed fist" of cavalry that included "more than 3/4 of the knights". But all the regular troops it either specifically mentions them wearing "jacks" (i.e. leather) or neglects to mention what they're wearing at all. If you think about it, there's no way they could afford to put 20,000 soldiers in full chain mail, it's simply not possible.

[IRON BANK]

Im glad we have these videos now, im bookmarking them for the next westeros vs dothraki thread. Since, not matter how many times you say it, people insist you can slash plate. The equations should clear this up. The dothraki would have to be supermen.

question: If 30 mounted dothraki face, 30 standing knights who wins?

[Inquisitor Glokta]

question: If 30 mounted dothraki face, 30 standing knights who wins?

Kind of pointless question... If you have enough gold to buy a full plate suit, you should buy a horse too.

Nonetheless, the knights would win, period.

[IRON BANK]

Kind of pointless question... If you have enough gold to buy a full plate suit, you should buy a horse too.

Nonetheless, the knights would win, period.

HMMM? Over mounted warriors, interesting?

[Inquisitor Glokta]

HMMM? Over mounted warriors, interesting?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/91171-come-into-my-castle-the-ways-of-warfare-in-westeros/

Read this post. They would usually carry long weapons like spears, pikes, etc.

If the Dothraki get in close, they get knocked off their horses and die. The Dothraki arrows WON'T be able to penetrate plate armor. Most of them never fought against armored knights in their life and would have no idea, how to make the right arrow heads.

Contratry to what Anguy said in the show, bodkin points can't pierce plate armor. They are able to pierce mail, at point blank range, that's it. And don't get me started on broadheads, which would be used by the Dothraki

edit: Apperantly there are some historical sources claiming, that bodkin points pierced plate armor. But this has yet to be tested nowadays. And then again, those arrow heads would have to hardened to pierce plate, which I highly doubt the Dothraki would do to their arrow heads

edit2: More in depth analysis if you are interested: http://www.royalarmouries.org/what-we-do/research/analytical-projects/armour-piercing-arrowheads

edit3: To quote wikipedia on bodkin points:

In a modern test, a direct hit from a steel bodkin point penetrated Damascus chain armour, although at point blank range.^[2] However, the test was conducted without a padded jack or gambeson, which was layered cloth armour worn over heavier armour for protection against projectiles, as it was known to stop even heavy arrows.

It is known!

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Not all "Knights" read Heavy Cavalry were nobility,only a select few were and yes the nobility were in general bigger but yeah,size doesn't always matter on a battlefield.

Strictly speaking that's true. I meant nobility in the broader sense, ministerials included. Generally, the wealthy people who could afford to serve in a knightly role, but also feed their children properly at all times.

Using Mongols as a template, the Mongols were experts at living off the land, and while they'd certainly be restricted from invading areas such as the North, Dorne, or the Vale, I'm not trying to say that they would be able to actually conquer Westeros(because I don't think they can). Areas like the Reach or the Riverlands are probably more fertile than the Dothraki sea, and if they are able to live off the land there then I don't see why the couldn't in the more fertile areas of Westeros.

Bad comparison. Not new, but still bad. The Dothraki resemble the Mongols as much as Winnieh the Pooh a real grizzly. And that's another topic discussed at length already, quite often.

edit: Apperantly there are some historical sources claiming, that bodkin points pierced plate armor. But this has yet to be tested nowadays. And then again, those arrow heads would have to hardened to pierce plate, which I highly doubt the Dothraki would do to their arrow heads

Strictly speaking, bodkin points can pierce plate armor - at less than ten meters, full frontal, perfect 90° angle. Read: as likely as the armored guy stumbling and breaking his neck.

[Lord Reaver]

In the places that E-Ro quoted, the only soldiers mentioned as wearing metal armour were the "mailed fist" of cavalry that included "more than 3/4 of the knights". But all the regular troops it either specifically mentions them wearing "jacks" (i.e. leather) or neglects to mention what they're wearing at all. If you think about it, there's no way they could afford to put 20,000 soldiers in full chain mail, it's simply not possible.

Provide quotes of the descriptions you're referring to, please.

Also, a "jack" is not a specific item. It is more a designation of a cut of the garment.

I.e you can have a "jack-of-plates", which is a variation on the brigandine (or coat-of-plates), in that it consists of a multitude of small metal plates attached to a textile garment.

Then you have the "padded jack" which is nothing more than a gambeson (or textile armor, if you like) cut to a certain style. These may have had leather outer coverings according to some sources, which is what I think is what you're referring to. And they are, as pointed out above, quite excellent protection against most projectiles, though not as good against edged weapons (hence why they were often reinforced with such things as e.g jack-chains).

As to your assertment that they could not field that many men with armour, that is blatantly untrue. By the 15th century, we have armies of tens of thousands of men, where fully half the force is wearing plate armour.

[E-Ro]

question: If 30 mounted dothraki face, 30 standing knights who wins?

In dance there is a fight in Danny's pov in the fighting pits. 10 mounted dothraki against 10 men on foot in mail with long swords. The men in mail are specifically said to be westerosi armed and armored. The men on foot with mail and long swords win.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

In dance there is a fight in Danny's pov in the fighting pits. 10 mounted dothraki against 10 men on foot in mail with long swords. The men in mail are specifically said to be westerosi armed and armored. The men on foot with mail and long swords win.

Didn't even remeber that one, nice catch.

This would make them even less effective against plate armor and a proper selection of weapons

[E-Ro]

It's specifically stated in the book that Westeros doesn't keep standing armies, unlike the Free Cities, though.

If given enough time the peasant levees could be trained and armed to an adequate degree, but I doubt they could stand up to an army made up of men who are warriors as a lifestyle.

Especially given that many houses in Westeros have already lost many men fighting in the Wot5K, it makes it even more likely that whatever troops they could further scrounge up will be poorly trained and less likely to be well-equipped.

So while ideally if given ample time and with a fresh population an army could be trained in Westeros that would defeat the Dothraki, that doesn't mean that if a force of ~100k were to arrive now that they would be easily defeated.

The logistics alone of trying to feed a force big enough to match the Dothraki is hard enough.(I'd assume the Dothraki would get by simply by raiding and sacking everything in sight, which isn't really an option for a lord to do to his own people), let alone trying to train and arm those men from a country that is already ravaged by war.

At no point did I say westeros had a standing army. But you would be mistaken to think the only way to have an effective fighting force is to have a standing army. The armies are made of large retinues of paid(payment varies, it won't always be gold) retainers. Each retinue will bear allegiance to the man that pays them. In most cases this will be a knight, lord, or landed gentleman of no particular noble birth. This goes all the way up the chain to The Lord paramount of the region the troops are from. So no, not a standing army by any means. But a trained, well equipped, and highly effective fighting force nonetheless.

[Sansa_Stark]

Knight's weren't really as big as they are made out to be,The Average height in the middle ages was quite low,I think 166 cm or 168 cm or something.

Well knights being short isn't the issue. Weren't a lot of samurai a lot shorter though?

Like 5'1-5'2

[E-Ro]

Didn't even remeber that one, nice catch.

This would make them even less effective against plate armor and a proper selection of weapons

Yeah I would quote it but I'm on my phone. If the dothraki can't take ten men in mail with long swords imagine them against men in plate with pole weapons. It would go even worse.

I would say the dothraki need at least a three times numerical advantage or some sort of equal force multiplier.