House Frey's Main Motive for the Red Wedding

[Ramsay Gimp]

This topic has come up on a couple other threads, and I recently debated it with Steve Atwell at Race For the Iron Throne:

http://racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com/2014/01/11/chapter-by-chapter-analysis-catelyn-ix/ (I am commenter RyanS if anyone's interested)

Basically, some readers think that the Red Wedding was purely a pragmatic and political move by the Freys, designed to abandon the losing Stark cause and align with the Lannisters/Iron Throne. Avenging Robb's broken promise was only a weak justification, not the actual motivation, according to this group.

This seems to largely be a way to absolve Robb of any responsibility for his own fate by making the Red Wedding an inevitability once he started losing, rather than a reaction to any decision he made. It minimizes Robb's marriage to Jeyne as an insignificant event that hardly affected the war's outcome, rather than the nail in Robb's coffin.

But I would encourage you to go back and read Lord Walder's dialogue during the massacre itself. He is spiteful and gloating, even offering to "apologize" to Robb. Merret Frey also remembers when news of Robb's marriage reached the Twins, and his grandfather saying "We need to avenge our honor" since the "whole realm was laughing at them," rather than "yay! now we can join up with the Lannisters!"

It's stated numerous times what a proud, petty, and bitter man Walder Frey is. He has long felt that the High Lords look down on him with disdain. To a man with those feelings, Robb breaking his oath (after Freys had fought and died for him, no less) would cause a very real sting.

None of this is meant to justify the Red Wedding. It's more to clarify the motives and nature of the perpetrators, which are different. For Tywin and Roose, it was just business. For Walder, it was deeply personal.

Finally, here is GRRM's take on the topic:

"What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him...

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Some_Questions1

[Ser Lady Stark Martell]

Agreed.

Sooner or later, Walder Frey would betray the Starks, but Robb's marriage to Jeyne sped up the process and made it 2647 times worse. I don't understand nor agree with people who say otherwise.

Why would Walder kill Robb, Cat and all those other people if Robb had followed through with his promise? He'd probably just be like "you know what? i'm going over to the lannisters. heh.", since he couldn't possibly hope to convince anyone he was doing the right thing, since Robb wouldn't be giving him any reason to be betrayed.

[Chaircat Meow]

Very good OP. I agree of course.

The Freys took a real risk pulling the wedding. They heaped a massive amount of opprobrium on themselves. They didn't actually get that much in return. Moreover, doing something so drastic was not necessary to get back in Tywin's good books: almost every other riverlord managed that much more cheaply. Revenge is therefore the obvious motivation.

I'd forgotten about Merret's reflections on Walder's motivations too.

Pettiness and spite are very important features of Frey and were very much apparent when he was introduced. He is also known as a fence sitter, but that does not define him.

[Robar]

That still doesn't mean that the Freys would have done any different if Robb had been the one marrying Roslin, instead of Edmure.

[Ramsay Gimp]

That still doesn't mean that the Freys would have done any different if Robb had been the one marrying Roslin, instead of Edmure.

Did you not read the SSM by George? Or the entire OP? The Freys would likely have tried to delay the marriage, or secretly given information to the Lannisters, or something. Not massacre guests under their roof

[Ramsay Gimp]

Pettiness and spite are very important features of Frey and were very much apparent when he was introduced. He is also known as a fence sitter, but that does not define him.

Indeed, I would say he's actually ruled by emotions to an extent as opposed to his co-conspirator Roose

[Warden of the Cheesy]

Robb should have pulled a Ned and not left the Twins before marrying Roslin. It was the most idiotic move of the entire war, and it had barely even started. IIRC, it's implied in the books that the reason Robb married the Westerling girl is because he "laid" with her, he probably fell in love with her and that's all fine and good, but simply having sex with her, he felt that the honorable thing to do was take her as his wife since he likely took her maidenhead. Which sounds strange to us, but in medieval times may not have been as strange of an idea.. Of course the Freys take that as a slight and want vengence, but do we really think that if Robb was winning the war at that point, the Freys would risk such a move? I kind of doubt it... But that's just me.

[Chaircat Meow]

There's a certain symmetry to Robb's rise and then his downfall. Both were based on the petty whims of Walder Frey!

Robb won the Whispering Wood because Frey felt offended by Tywin's arrogance and pride, leading him to come off the fence, despite his prior behaviour, and commit to the (somewhat weaker) side. Robb's cause collapsed because Robb insulted Frey and thereby roused against himself all the peevishness that had previously been deployed in his favour.

[Ramsay Gimp]

There's a certain symmetry to Robb's rise and then his downfall. Both were based on the petty whims of Walder Frey!

Robb won the Whispering Wood because Frey felt offended by Tywin's arrogance and pride, leading him to come off the fence, despite his prior behaviour, and commit to the (somewhat weaker) side. Robb's cause collapsed because Robb insulted Frey and thereby roused against himself all the peevishness that had previously been deployed in his favour.

Well put. Tywin's assumption that Walder would sit it out, without Tywin asking him to or offering a reward, caused him a lot of grief. As did Robb's assumption that he could mend the damage he'd done by giving the Freys Edmure and an apology

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Pragmatically Walder had very little choice when you think about it. When Robb chooses to ravage the West it was only Northmen and Freys he brought with Him. Like the Tullys and the Starks his house would of been made extinct at the end of the War.

Emotionally he lost his son and heir, a thoroughly decent man by all accounts, who would of made a good leader for his house. He also lost a young Grandson who was butchered as a helpless prisoner. As Robbs biggest supporter, he should of expected better. Cleos Frey was also indirectly killed by the Starks. Had Walder never opened the bridge, those 3 members of his family would be alive. People often want to focus on pettiness, but Walder for all his negatives, is actually one of best family men in Westeros. Generations of Freys are cared for and bastards are married off into good families or made knights, both of which is pretty costly.

And then there are the personal reasons, Hoster and other Lords have treated his family as lessers just because they are only 600 years old. Walder gave Robb a fantastic deal, more support and military aid than any other Bannerman and yet that was chucked in his face for an older weaker family who could only supply a dozen or so Knights. He has made the Iron Throne and the West families(who he always maintained good relations much to the chagrin of Hoster) enemies for no reward, offered Edmure when the war is lost and the Tullys are certainly going to lose their position under the Iron Throne.

[the conquoring bastard25]

Those that absolve Robb of any responsiblititly are delusional. Like Cat said and I can't believe I am agreeing with that bitch. As a highlord or king his word is his bond. Go back on your word as a king and your nobles and subjects have the right to do the same. The situation with Walder was the same with Tywin and Elia of Dorne. He killed him in the most morbid way possible as a lesson to the realm about the strength of house Frey.

[Chaircat Meow]

Those that absolve Robb of any responsiblititly are delusional. Like Cat said and I can't believe I am agreeing with that bitch. As a highlord or king his word is his bond. Go back on your word as a king and your nobles and subjects have the right to do the same. The situation with Walder was the same with Tywin and Elia of Dorne. He killed him in the most morbid way possible as a lesson to the realm about the strength of house Frey.

Not that I want to disagree with someone who thinks Robb gets unfairly absolved but err ... Elia didn't do anything to Tywin. Aerys never agreed to the marriage Tywin proposed.

[Lord Thornhart]

In one of Arya's last CoK chapters she hears a Frey trying to persuade Roose to abandon Robb because they don't feel like they can win the war.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Pragmatically Walder had very little choice when you think about it. When Robb chooses to ravage the West it was only Northmen and Freys he brought with Him. Like the Tullys and the Starks his house would of been made extinct at the end of the War.

Emotionally he lost his son and heir, a thoroughly decent man by all accounts, who would of made a good leader for his house. He also lost a young Grandson who was butchered as a helpless prisoner. As Robbs biggest supporter, he should of expected better. Cleos Frey was also indirectly killed by the Starks. Had Walder never opened the bridge, those 3 members of his family would be alive. People often want to focus on pettiness, but Walder for all his negatives, is actually one of best family men in Westeros. Generations of Freys are cared for and bastards are married off into good families or made knights, both of which is pretty costly.

And then there are the personal reasons, Hoster and other Lords have treated his family as lessers just because they are only 600 years old. Walder gave Robb a fantastic deal, more support and military aid than any other Bannerman and yet that was chucked in his face for an older weaker family who could only supply a dozen or so Knights. He has made the Iron Throne and the West families(who he always maintained good relations much to the chagrin of Hoster) enemies for no reward, offered Edmure when the war is lost and the Tullys are certainly going to lose their position under the Iron Throne.

I agree that Walder Frey's one redeeming quality is his genuine concern for his kin - despite constantly acting like an asshole to them he will go out of his way to ensure their prosperity and safety. His heirs lack even that blood loyalty, which is why everyone at the Twins fears Walder dying. And I think he probably did have a genuine regard for Stevron - it is said he took a lot of time instilling the right attitude in him.

I disagree that his House would have been extinguished after the war, though. He didn't really lend any more support than House Umber, Mallister, or any other major Stark/Tully bannerman. Had he simply withdrawn and stayed neutral after Robb broke his word, or even offered to send troops for the Lannisters, he would have been spared given Tywin's modus operandi with the Riverlands/Northern Houses. There is also Genna's marriage to a Frey to consider

[Ramsay Gimp]

In one of Arya's last CoK chapters she hears a Frey trying to persuade Roose to abandon Robb because they don't feel like they can win the war.

Not quite. They are trying to persuade him that Harrenhal can't be held, and that Robb must be convinced to bend the knee. They don't suggest abandoning Robb

[complexphoenix]

Pragmatically Walder had very little choice when you think about it. When Robb chooses to ravage the West it was only Northmen and Freys he brought with Him. Like the Tullys and the Starks his house would of been made extinct at the end of the War.

Emotionally he lost his son and heir, a thoroughly decent man by all accounts, who would of made a good leader for his house. He also lost a young Grandson who was butchered as a helpless prisoner. As Robbs biggest supporter, he should of expected better. Cleos Frey was also indirectly killed by the Starks. Had Walder never opened the bridge, those 3 members of his family would be alive. People often want to focus on pettiness, but Walder for all his negatives, is actually one of best family men in Westeros. Generations of Freys are cared for and bastards are married off into good families or made knights, both of which is pretty costly.

And then there are the personal reasons, Hoster and other Lords have treated his family as lessers just because they are only 600 years old. Walder gave Robb a fantastic deal, more support and military aid than any other Bannerman and yet that was chucked in his face for an older weaker family who could only supply a dozen or so Knights. He has made the Iron Throne and the West families(who he always maintained good relations much to the chagrin of Hoster) enemies for no reward, offered Edmure when the war is lost and the Tullys are certainly going to lose their position under the Iron Throne.

Oh not this again.

I've said it in many other threads and I'll say it again: as a sworn bannerman of House Tully, Walder Frey was OBLIGATED to risk his sons' necks for his liege lord's cause. OBLIGATED by the oaths he swore and the portion of Tully lands he held and drew income from. Many other Riverlords lost kids too and NONE OF THEM COMPLAINED. Because they were good little vassals who did what was expected of them instead of demanding special treatment.

This argument would be valid if House Frey were independent, but it isn't. The Twins are sworn to Riverrun. Therefore they should have been with Robb from the beginning with no questions asked and no price demanded, like all the other Riverlords were. Far from being Robb's "biggest supporter" he behaved from the beginning like a fucking sellsword instead of a nobleman. And he always does that, in all his affairs, which is the REAL reason everyone looks down on him and treats him like shit. The family name being only 600 years old doesn't help, but Lord Walder's own wretched behavior is the reason he has no honor.

And now, his piss-poor understanding of the concept of honor has led him to irrevocably incinerate every scrap of honor he ever might have had. Much like Jaime's Kingslaying, only much worse, much less justifiable, and against a much more sympathetic victim. Jaime has shit for honor and will have shit for honor for the rest of his life, but his oathbreaking didn't contaminate the honor of the rest of his family. But House Frey will always be synonymous with breach of guest right and now the entire family has shit for honor and probably always will... under they are all slain or scattered and all that was theirs is given to others, which may be much sooner than any of them realize.

[Yukle]

I think that the significance of the Red Wedding was undone by the revelation that Robb's attraction to Jeyne and his marriage to her was actually engineered by Tywin. It annoys me for two reasons. Firstly: There is no explanation as to how Tywin can so effortlessly manipulate Robb into such a specific breach of his promises to his allies yet he cannot even slightly pacify the Iron Islands and is stupid enough to leave the Reach undefended on the western coast.

If everyone always acts true to their family's types, as Westerosi seem to believe, then Robb would've impregnated Jeyne and kept her child but left her (which is, as far as Tywin knows, what Ned did).

There's a second reason the "Tywin orchestrated it" revelation annoys me: It disrupts the natural flow of the story and is no longer a series of characters reacting to natural progressions of events. The story works perfectly well as Robb making a grave error and then having his allies and enemies take advantage accordingly. The Red Wedding was his allies' reaction to being slighted, as hinted by the Freys' infamous pride. Now, however, it feels like an author's calling card. It was GRRM thinking long and hard about how to wrap up a story neatly with an explanation for all events. Life is not like that, and most great events are not so constructed and thought out as that. People are not always scheming for grand ideas, sometimes they are opportunistic.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I think that the significance of the Red Wedding was undone by the revelation that Robb's attraction to Jeyne and his marriage to her was actually engineered by Tywin. It annoys me for two reasons. Firstly: There is no explanation as to how Tywin can so effortlessly manipulate Robb into such a specific breach of his promises to his allies yet he cannot even slightly pacify the Iron Islands and is stupid enough to leave the Reach undefended on the western coast.

If everyone always acts true to their family's types, as Westerosi seem to believe, then Robb would've impregnated Jeyne and kept her child but left her (which is, as far as Tywin knows, what Ned did).

There's a second reason the "Tywin orchestrated it" revelation annoys me: It disrupts the natural flow of the story and is no longer a series of characters reacting to natural progressions of events. The story works perfectly well as Robb making a grave error and then having his allies and enemies take advantage accordingly. The Red Wedding was his allies' reaction to being slighted, as hinted by the Freys' infamous pride. Now, however, it feels like an author's calling card. It was GRRM thinking long and hard about how to wrap up a story neatly with an explanation for all events. Life is not like that, and most great events are not so constructed and thought out as that. People are not always scheming for grand ideas, sometimes they are opportunistic.

I don't think that Tywin orchestrated it beforehand. I know others disagree, but it isn't "confirmed" in the text

[complexphoenix]

I think that the significance of the Red Wedding was undone by the revelation that Robb's attraction to Jeyne and his marriage to her was actually engineered by Tywin. It annoys me for two reasons. Firstly: There is no explanation as to how Tywin can so effortlessly manipulate Robb into such a specific breach of his promises to his allies yet he cannot even slightly pacify the Iron Islands and is stupid enough to leave the Reach undefended on the western coast.

If everyone always acts true to their family's types, as Westerosi seem to believe, then Robb would've impregnated Jeyne and kept her child but left her (which is, as far as Tywin knows, what Ned did).

There's a second reason the "Tywin orchestrated it" revelation annoys me: It disrupts the natural flow of the story and is no longer a series of characters reacting to natural progressions of events. The story works perfectly well as Robb making a grave error and then having his allies and enemies take advantage accordingly. The Red Wedding was his allies' reaction to being slighted, as hinted by the Freys' infamous pride. Now, however, it feels like an author's calling card. It was GRRM thinking long and hard about how to wrap up a story neatly with an explanation for all events. Life is not like that, and most great events are not so constructed and thought out as that. People are not always scheming for grand ideas, sometimes they are opportunistic.

There was never any such revelation. What is revealed is that after Jeyne married Robb, her mother cut a deal with Tywin, in which Sybell prevented Jeyne from becoming pregnant in return for certain favors. It was never said that the marriage itself was Tywin's plot.

[HMR]

The north remembers.