House Frey's Main Motive for the Red Wedding

[The Fallen]

As GrrM said, there is no certain answer to what if questions.

However, I imagine Frey would have let Robb and his men pass on north, without Robb marrying one of his daughters, and then played it from there. If Tywin deployed substantial forces in the riverlands, and guaranteed Frey protection from Robb, Frey would offer to shut the bridge and switch sides. Some other riverlords might even have done the same if offered concessions, like the Brackens.

I also find it hard to believe that Walder wouldn't look around, asses the situation and think that "the ship be sinking", and thus start looking for a way to end up on the winning side.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I also find it hard to believe that Walder wouldn't look around, asses the situation and think that "the ship be sinking", and thus start looking for a way to end up on the winning side.

I also think he would have one look at the map and realized the Twins was right between the Riverlands and the North.

If he was the bigger man and accepted Robbs betrayal and just changed sides without any retribution he would of known that the North and Riverlands could never of allowed a Crown loyalist to stay in the middle of their kingdom.

[Winnief]

Also one thing I keep coming back to with the Frey's is their treatment of Edmure and the other hostages, (none of whom 'insulted' their honor and in fact in the case of Edmure is now their in-law who bestowed honor on them.) They basically plan to kill Edmure is Roslin has a son, to secure control of the Riverlands and they were salivating at the thought of the ransoms and compensation they could get for the nobles in captivity-until Jaime dashed their hopes.

That is not justice. That is not vengeance, (of either the petty or justified variety,) that is simply kidnapping, murder, and theft for the basest of reasons.

And even more strikingly, there was the behavior of the Frey delegation up North; it was classic carpet-bagging. They go up to Manderly, whose one son they have murdered, and the other they hold hostage, and tell an utterly implausible lie to his face, (essentially it was a "nyah nyah!" you can't do anything because we've got the Lannister's and Boltons supporting us" moment,) then assume they can marry Manderly's grand-daughters, (something the grand-daughters would probably have objected to even before the RW.) It was literally the definition of adding insult to injury and then expecting to be rewarded for it. Big Time.

That delegation of Frey's was probably just planned to be the first wave, with other Frey members to be heading up soon, to go after those unmarried Mormont women, Lady Cerwyn, sniffing around the Flint's and the Umbers to see what goodies could be found, etc. I think the Frey's believed, that because of their 'alliance' with the Lannister's and Bolton's they were now free to use the North as their own piggy bank-to get advantageous marriages, positions, titles, jobs, establish themselves among the best households, etc. in spite of rather because they have committed such atrocities against all the great Northern households.

I think the theory they saw, the RW as their 'Castamere' moment was correct, and that everyone would fear and bow down to them. Which displayed several fundamental misunderstandings.

A. The Reynes and Tarbecks were destroyed in traditional warfare-which doesn't make it any less hateful, but did make it seem pretty bold-an ambush attach like the RW just doesn't get the same respect-in fact it could be seen as cowardly.

B. Nobody, but nobody messes with Guest Right in Westeros. Nobody. Notice how even Tywin (sacked KL) Lannister didn't want his name associated with this one.

C. This is the North we are talking about bitchez! Maybe in the South they put up with shit like this, but here in the North, you pull something like the RW, and then have the nerve to show up acting smug, they get the oven ready!

[lulu_pix]

After Robb broke his marriage vow all bets are off, Think about from Walder prespective, Some boy king comes down from the north wants to march his army through your bridge, so he vows to marry one of your welps and you give him military support, financial support etc.. all of a sudden you hear this boy king has married some girl from the west and this boy king while he may be winning battles is still loosing the war. Tywin comes in with a better offer, he is most like to win the war and you get securtiy and your current land and titles get elevated along with your family.

Well let me invite this boy king and i vow that no harm will come to him under my roof, except why should I keep my vow? this boy sure as hell didnt keep his, better to kill him and all his liege lords this way i save alot on soliders, money etc...

[Darksnider05]

After Robb broke his marriage vow all bets are off, Think about from Walder prespective, Some boy king comes down from the north wants to march his army through your bridge, so he vows to marry one of your welps and you give him military support, financial support etc.. all of a sudden you hear this boy king has married some girl from the west and this boy king while he may be winning battles is still loosing the war. Tywin comes in with a better offer, he is most like to win the war and you get securtiy and your current land and titles get elevated along with your family.

Well let me invite this boy king and i vow that no harm will come to him under my roof, except why should I keep my vow? this boy sure as hell didnt keep his, better to kill him and all his liege lords this way i save alot on soliders, money etc...

You know you could understand the time line before you make such a silly post.

Because Robb was a boy "King" coming down from the North.

[Winnief]

Tywin comes in with a better offer, he is most like to win the war and you get securtiy and your current land and titles get elevated along with your family.

Well let me invite this boy king and i vow that no harm will come to him under my roof, except why should I keep my vow? this boy sure as hell didnt keep his, better to kill him and all his liege lords this way i save alot on soliders, money etc...

Only in the short run...in the long run, killing innocent members of all your neighbors families and the best families of the North, while violating the biggest taboo in Westeros is clearly going to cost you...and anyone thinking that Tywin was offering 'security' was a fool. He never promised the Frey's permanent Lannister protection-just guaranteed the IT personally wouldn't prosecute them. And his heirs aren't likely to even keep that deal.

[Boxman]

I think the outcome of events, as it happened, it Robb's fault, but I think the red wedding would have happened in some capacity regardless. IMO Roose Bolton is the one primarily responsible it, at least guilty of laying the foundation. Other stuff supports this, like Roose sending large portions of the Norhtern army off to die for no good reason, and the knowledge that the Boltons and Starks have had a very long rivalry with one another. If you look at the red wedding as a function of Roose Bolton gaining control in the North, rather than a battle move by Tywin or an act of revenge out of Walder Frey, it lines up rather well. The fact that there was a Lannister motivation for military victory, and a Frey motivation to avenge themselves for the insult done to them, contributes to the way everything played out

[lulu_pix]

Only in the short run...in the long run, killing innocent members of all your neighbors families and the best families of the North, while violating the biggest taboo in Westeros is clearly going to cost you...and anyone thinking that Tywin was offering 'security' was a fool. He never promised the Frey's permanent Lannister protection-just guaranteed the IT personally wouldn't prosecute them. And his heirs aren't likely to even keep that deal.

Im not saying it was right, im jsut saying from his perspective i think he thought it was smart, only he doesnt know how much its gona cost in the end

[Guest]

I personally will never understand how Rob could have made such an obviously stupid move. He knew full well his word was his bond and that his credibility was one of his most important features. It would have been far kinder and smarter to leave Jeyne Westerling with a bastard child (even though we know now she wouldn't have had one because of her mother) than to desert his oath to the Freys. He could have arranged a marriage for her after the war was over.

I do wonder, if they had Arya there, would the Freys have been more pacified? Perhaps not gone through with the whole thing? Because then they could have said "Well yes, I screwed up - but all my brothers are lost, I'm having a problem conceiving an heir and my little sister is here to marry one of your Freys as promised. Any children she should have with your son would be in the line of succession, since we're cutting Sansa out (on account of being a Lannister)."

Probably would have been too little too late though.

[lulu_pix]

You know you could understand the time line before you make such a silly post.

Because Robb was a boy "King" coming down from the North.

wat i mean is once he made a deal with Tywin he no longer sees robb as his king

[lulu_pix]

I personally will never understand how Rob could have made such an obviously stupid move. He knew full well his word was his bond and that his credibility was one of his most important features. It would have been far kinder and smarter to leave Jeyne Westerling with a bastard child (even though we know now she wouldn't have had one because of her mother) than to desert his oath to the Freys. He could have arranged a marriage for her after the war was over.

I do wonder, if they had Arya there, would the Freys have been more pacified? Perhaps not gone through with the whole thing? Because then they could have said "Well yes, I screwed up - but all my brothers are lost, I'm having a problem conceiving an heir and my little sister is here to marry one of your Freys as promised. Any children she should have with your son would be in the line of succession, since we're cutting Sansa out (on account of being a Lannister)."

Probably would have been too little too late though.

Yes it was a stupid move, he couldve also waited until he won the war to break his vow instead of breaking it while still depnding on the freys

also heres an intersting question, if your kings breaks his vow to you, are you still obligated to follow and accept him as king?

[Ramsay Gimp]

Frankly, I'd almost like them better if they were more upfront about their misdeeds the way Roose Bolton is. Now there's a guy who doesn't try to justify being horrible with any BS about the victims bringing it on themselves by breaking a betrothal promise or turning into wolves!! Nope, just straight "I'm a ruthless bastard-deal with it." It's actually kinda refreshing. Even Tywin seems to try and soft pedal his actions, "Killing a dozen men over dinner," when thousands died but the Bolton's put the Flayed Man right on the sigil. Of course, I still want the Bolton's killed off, (especially Ramsay that Dahmer style psycho) but at least I kinda respect Roose in the oddest way, and enjoy him as a character, while I just can't stand the Frey's.

I agree wholeheartedly. Roose is a man who does not delude himself about his own nature or anyone else's. His cold lack of emotion is in stark (hehe) contrast to Walder's bitter pettiness. I love how HBO seems to understand this too - their different personalities were illustrated quite well in episode 10 this season. Tywin falls somewhere between them in personality.

To the OP.... I understand your point, but to me this whole thread is trying to seem like a justification for the RW. Now, I will admit that I am somewhat of a Stark fanboy, but IMO there is nothing that can be said to justify what the Freys did. Lets take Robb out of the equation. The Freys massacred dozens of nobles who really did nothing to them. That in itself was just disgraceful.

I explicitly said it was not meant to defend Frey's actions. I just want to clarify the motives and natures of the perpetrators. Part of what makes the Red Wedding interesting is that all of the conspirators had different motives that came together in a perfect storm.

I think this is not a justification for us, the reader, more than it is a justification from Walder's, Roose's, and Tywin's point of view.

The Frey's especially feel the need to finally make a statement that "We are tired of being looked over, scoffed at, lied to, disrespected, and this is what is going to happen if you continue to take us lightly. If Tywin Lannister can do it, so can we." They have support from Casterly Rock, The Dreadfort, The Reach, and the IT. Walder knows that no one will ever "Love" the Freys, but now they will "Fear" the Freys and and he believes that respect will come from that, the same way Tywin is respected.

For us, the reader, It was a horrible crime, that cannot be justified, with severe and long standing consequences.

Yup. The Red Wedding was an atrocity. But that doesn't mean Walder Frey didn't find his own actions justified.

[Guest]

Yes it was a stupid move, he couldve also waited until he won the war to break his vow instead of breaking it while still depnding on the freys

also heres an intersting question, if your kings breaks his vow to you, are you still obligated to follow and accept him as king?

I would say a King who cannot keep his word is no King. Which is probably what the Freys thought. Logically, it doesn't make sense to back the guy who stabbed you in the back.

[Annara Snow]

Pragmatically Walder had very little choice when you think about it. When Robb chooses to ravage the West it was only Northmen and Freys he brought with Him. Like the Tullys and the Starks his house would of been made extinct at the end of the War.

Emotionally he lost his son and heir, a thoroughly decent man by all accounts, who would of made a good leader for his house. He also lost a young Grandson who was butchered as a helpless prisoner. As Robbs biggest supporter, he should of expected better. Cleos Frey was also indirectly killed by the Starks. Had Walder never opened the bridge, those 3 members of his family would be alive. People often want to focus on pettiness, but Walder for all his negatives, is actually one of best family men in Westeros. Generations of Freys are cared for and bastards are married off into good families or made knights, both of which is pretty costly.

Yeah, he's such an awesome family man. As seen in the fact that he didn't give a shit when his disabled son getting killed. Or in the fact that he was ready to use one of his daughters as a bait in order to organize a mass massacre, as if she was just a thing - because, obviously, being wedded and losing your virginity as a part of a scheme to commit a mass murder and kill your knew husband's family is every girl's dream!

And all this because... Robb offended his daughters? Rubbish. Robb had never even met any of his daughters, we don't even know how they felt about this prospective marriage, and I doubt that their feelings were what Walder was concerned about. He did it because he felt Robb offended him.

If he had any brains and really thought about the future of his children and the reputation of his house in the realm, he would never had organized the RW, which made their house the most despised in the realm, and made them the target of retribution, resulting in many Frey deaths.

[Winnief]

I agree wholeheartedly. Roose is a man who does not delude himself about his own nature or anyone else's. His cold lack of emotion is in stark (hehe) contrast to Walder's bitter pettiness. I love how HBO seems to understand this too - their different personalities were illustrated quite well in episode 10 this season. Tywin falls somewhere between them in personality.

That was a good scene. Roose could barely contain his contempt-not for Walder's bloodthirst but his obvious pettiness.

BTW-I'm so looking to seeing Fat Walda next season.

[lulu_pix]

Yeah, he's such an awesome family man. As seen in the fact that he didn't give a shit when his disabled son getting killed. Or in the fact that he was ready to use one of his daughters as a bait in order to organize a mass massacre, as if she was just a thing - because, obviously, being wedded and losing your virginity as a part of a scheme to commit a mass murder and kill your knew husband's family is every girl's dream!

And all this because... Robb offended his daughters? Rubbish. Robb had never even met any of his daughters, we don't even know how they felt about this prospective marriage, and I doubt that their feelings were what Walder was concerned about. He did it because he felt Robb offended him.

If he had any brains and really thought about the future of his children and the reputation of his house in the realm, he would never had organized the RW, which made their house the most despised in the realm, and made them the target of retribution, resulting in many Frey deaths.

I agree with evreything except this, i think the pesonal offense was just a part of it, he also wanted a frey to be queen, and he lost that.

[complexphoenix]

Many houses during Robert's Rebellion felt differently, including in the Riverlands

That's true, but those Riverlords who sided with the Targaryens in RR did so out of genuine respect for the monarchy and/or personal ties to House Targaryen, whereas Walder was just out for himself and being an opportunistic piece of shit.

In RR, Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon and Hoster Tully all saw some of their bannermen side with the Targaryens. But in the Wot5K it was different; pretty much everybody started off on the side of their liege lord. At the beginning the Stormlords were all for Renly, the Westerlords were all for Joffrey, the Northlords and Riverlords were all for Robb... except Walder Frey, who demanded a bribe to do what he should have done for free.

[Annara Snow]

I think the outcome of events, as it happened, it Robb's fault, but I think the red wedding would have happened in some capacity regardless. IMO Roose Bolton is the one primarily responsible it, at least guilty of laying the foundation. Other stuff supports this, like Roose sending large portions of the Norhtern army off to die for no good reason, and the knowledge that the Boltons and Starks have had a very long rivalry with one another. If you look at the red wedding as a function of Roose Bolton gaining control in the North, rather than a battle move by Tywin or an act of revenge out of Walder Frey, it lines up rather well. The fact that there was a Lannister motivation for military victory, and a Frey motivation to avenge themselves for the insult done to them, contributes to the way everything played out

I agree. I suspect Roose, perhaps in talks with Tywin, may have been the one to come up with the idea for the Red Wedding. He already had an alliance with the Freys after marrying Fat Walda, and to cement this, his bastard son held Big Walder and Little Walder and made them his squires. I can see Walder Fre fuming about Robb's betrayal and insult, and then, arrogant and pissy idiot that he is, jumping on his ally's idea as a great way to repay Robb's insult.

So, Roose gets to remove Robb and take over the North from the Starks and becomes the Warden of the North - and doesn't even have to suffer half of the ignominy that the house Frey has brought on themselves, because he wasn't the host of the RW.

I agree with evreything except this, i think the pesonal offense was just a part of it, he also wanted a frey to be queen, and he lost that.

Which was about him. Just like Tywin, when those guys do something for "the benefit of my family", they're really doing it for themselves.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

That's true, but those Riverlords who sided with the Targaryens in RR did so out of genuine respect for the monarchy and/or personal ties to House Targaryen

What series are you reading?

Just like in real life, GRRM has presented the majority of these Lords as Men who are looking out primarily for themselves. Very few have altruistic motives.

Bracken is a fine example, as soon as the war is lost, he quickly surrenders to increase the size of his lands and to get the best deal for himself.

[Yukle]

Just like in real life, GRRM has presented the majority of these Lords as Men who are looking out primarily for themselves. Very few have altruistic motives.

And even those who are acting in the interests of others are thinking of their own people, not those spread across the continent. Ned was considerate of his daughters' safety, and of Cersei's children, but less so of the faceless Gold Cloaks he was intending to use to seize control for Stannis.