House Frey's Main Motive for the Red Wedding

[Castle Black]

To the OP.... I understand your point, but to me this whole thread is trying to seem like a justification for the RW. Now, I will admit that I am somewhat of a Stark fanboy, but IMO there is nothing that can be said to justify what the Freys did. Lets take Robb out of the equation. The Freys massacred dozens of nobles who really did nothing to them. That in itself was just disgraceful. Also, let me add that when Robb agreed to marry a Frey woman, he did so as Lord of Winterfell, not King in the North and Trident. Once Robb becomes a King he SHOULD be able to change his marriage prospects if need be. Walder should have just been satisfied to have one of his sons/grandsons/great grandsons marry the sister of the King in the North and Trident, and also to have one of his daughters marry the new Lord of Riverrun, who has been their overlords for three hundred years. it is pretty apparent that Walder Frey always tried to get in the good graces of the Tullys. Well, he had his chance to and blew it through deceit and treachery. Now his house is screwed and the entire realm is against them. All in all, I say the RW was a huge overreaction and a stupid decision.

[The Fallen]

But none of the Freys, least of all Walder himself, treat it like a "pretense." Merret recalls Lord Walder saying that the whole realm was laughing at them, and GRRM has said it was done to "wash out the dishonor that was done to him."

If the real reason was pure pragmatism, why would Frey take the time to mock Robb before killing him? It's never implied that he revels in cruelty or sadism like a Bolton

I had written a response yesterday and my phone deleted it. So I'll summarize.

The Jeyne marriage upset the Freys, no doubt about it. As an example there's Hosteen's immediate reaction. I'll just state several things.

1. Had Robb defeated Tywin (keeping him from the Blackwater), Walder doesn't stage a RW.

2. Had Tywin not given Walder his blessing, meaning promising Walder complete forgiveness for his actions in return for Walder taking out Robb, there would also not be a RW.

3. As despicable as Walder is, neither he nor anyone else (as far as I can tell) had ever staged anything like the RW. This is a huge departure from what can be considered normal retribution for a slight to your house's honor. I don't think any lord would undertake such an action unless they were guaranteed safety from retribution. Walder alone could not guarantee his own safety. Not from the entire North, which is what the RW ensured.

So, the marriage to Jeyne was the motivation to get back at Robb. However, getting in good with the crown, and Tywin's assurances were the real reason for the RW, with the Jeyne marriage also serving as a pretense. And of course, the Freys themselves use werewolves as the reason for the treason.

That's my humble opinion.

[Lord Damian]

The Red Wedding from the viewpoint of Lord Walder and is evil brood was to tie up many loose strings and many children tied off in marriages.

Mainly, though, they were afraid of Tywin winning and the retribution that would follow.

[Mourneblade]

To the OP.... I understand your point, but to me this whole thread is trying to seem like a justification for the RW. Now, I will admit that I am somewhat of a Stark fanboy, but IMO there is nothing that can be said to justify what the Freys did. Lets take Robb out of the equation. The Freys massacred dozens of nobles who really did nothing to them. That in itself was just disgraceful. Also, let me add that when Robb agreed to marry a Frey woman, he did so as Lord of Winterfell, not King in the North and Trident. Once Robb becomes a King he SHOULD be able to change his marriage prospects if need be. Walder should have just been satisfied to have one of his sons/grandsons/great grandsons marry the sister of the King in the North and Trident, and also to have one of his daughters marry the new Lord of Riverrun, who has been their overlords for three hundred years. it is pretty apparent that Walder Frey always tried to get in the good graces of the Tullys. Well, he had his chance to and blew it through deceit and treachery. Now his house is screwed and the entire realm is against them. All in all, I say the RW was a huge overreaction and a stupid decision.

I think this is not a justification for us, the reader, more than it is a justification from Walder's, Roose's, and Tywin's point of view.

The Frey's especially feel the need to finally make a statement that "We are tired of being looked over, scoffed at, lied to, disrespected, and this is what is going to happen if you continue to take us lightly. If Tywin Lannister can do it, so can we." They have support from Casterly Rock, The Dreadfort, The Reach, and the IT. Walder knows that no one will ever "Love" the Freys, but now they will "Fear" the Freys and and he believes that respect will come from that, the same way Tywin is respected.

For us, the reader, It was a horrible crime, that cannot be justified, with severe and long standing consequences.

[Chaircat Meow]

So, the marriage to Jeyne was the motivation to get back at Robb. However, getting in good with the crown, and Tywin's assurances were the real reason for the RW, with the Jeyne marriage also serving as a pretense. And of course, the Freys themselves use werewolves as the reason for the treason.

That's my humble opinion.

And it makes no sense.

You even say Jeynegate was the motivation but then claim issues that you've previously described as enabling factors were the 'real reason.' Is motivation now distinct from real reason?

[Arland]

And it makes no sense.

You even say Jeynegate was the motivation but then claim issues that you've previously described as enabling factors were the 'real reason.' Is motivation now distinct from real reason?

As somebody convinced me earlier : it is very possible that Freys simply started to believe in their own BS. It is very easy to believe a lie if it serves your interests. So without Jayne they would have turned on Robb anyway using somethign else as a pretex... but they were vehement about their "revenge" because they started believe in their own PR.

[Chaircat Meow]

As somebody convinced me earlier : it is very possible that Freys simply started to believe in their own BS. It is very easy to believe a lie if it serves your interests. So without Jayne they would have turned on Robb anyway using somethign else as a pretex... but they were vehement about their "revenge" because they started believe in their own PR.

Despite the author himself saying it was only *likely* that *down the line* they would desert in a *less savage fashion.*

I'm sorry, but I haven't really seen anything tangible in support of the view you are putting forward, and given it's contradicted by the author himself I doubt I will.

Just because you might think the honour of the Twins is a joke does not mean Lord Walder does.

[Maester Pedant]

Walder made an agreement with Robb, a deal which was hugely beneficial to both parties. Robb reneged and Walder took his vengeance into his own ends and Robb suffered the consequences just as I imagine Walder and the the Freys will at some point.

I agree Walder Frey had every reason to be angry. I even agree that some sort of revenge was justified. Having been offended by Robb, Walder Frey could have just abandoned his cause, or started fighting for the Lannisters or even orchestrated the wedding in such a way as to capture Robb, without killing him. But what he did is not only an atrocity in the eyes of the society he is part of, but also a complete overreaction.

Robb broke an engagement. So Walder Frey kills him, his mother and two thousand other people. This is more than just vengeance...

[The Fallen]

And it makes no sense.

You even say Jeynegate was the motivation but then claim issues that you've previously described as enabling factors were the 'real reason.' Is motivation now distinct from real reason?

I think I'm making a distinction. A motivating factor doesn't equal murder. I even gave examples of how the Jeyne marriage would not have led to the Red Wedding.

The point is that only Tywin's assurance that Walder would get off scot-free made the Red Wedding possible.

So again, the Jeyne marriage can be motivation. I'm not arguing it's not. I am arguing that it doesn't equal Red Wedding.

[Chaircat Meow]

I think I'm making a distinction. A motivating factor doesn't equal murder. I even gave examples of how the Jeyne marriage would not have led to the Red Wedding.

The point is that only Tywin's assurance that Walder would get off scot-free made the Red Wedding possible.

So again, the Jeyne marriage can be motivation. I'm not arguing it's not. I am arguing that it doesn't equal Red Wedding.

Um ... yea, I agree.

But Ramsay and I are saying the reason Frey wanted to pull the RW was because of Jeynegate. We think Frey only acted on this desire because Tywin was able to promise him he'd get away with it. We deny Frey would have pulled the RW, or anything like it, if Robb hadn't married Jeyne.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Robb broke an engagement. So Walder Frey kills him, his mother and two thousand other people. This is more than just vengeance...

In fairness, those 3,500 were armed soldiers. Their deaths were as much down to lax leadership (like the 10,000 Lannisters at Oxcross) than it was the Freys. Cat went their warning Robb, he and his generals should of been better prepared.

[Minsc]

In fairness, those 3,500 were armed soldiers. Their deaths were as much down to lax leadership (like the 10,000 Lannisters at Oxcross) than it was the Freys. Cat went their warning Robb, he and his generals should of been better prepared.

Not really, any general should be prepared that their enemy might surprise attack during the night thus Stafford Lannister should have prepared the necessary look outs to ensure he isn't caught off guard. In contrast, within Westeroi society it is completely unthinkable that a host would feed his guests his bread and salt then proceed to murder them when they are unaware.

Moreover, before being given Frey's bread and salt Robb and the Northern troops were wary with their interactions to a degree that the RW slaughter wouldn't have been as massive thus he did take some necessary steps.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Not really, any general should be prepared that their enemy might surprise attack during the night thus Stafford Lannister should have prepared the necessary look outs to ensure he isn't caught off guard. In contrast, within Westeroi society it is completely unthinkable that a host would feed his guests his bread and salt then proceed to murder them when they are unaware.

Moreover, before being given Frey's bread and salt Robb and the Northern troops were wary with their interactions to a degree that the RW slaughter wouldn't have been as massive thus he did take some necessary steps.

I'm not sure, but I don't think the guest rights extend to the soldiers outside the castle. When Robb calls his banners in the first book a Bolton man kills a Cerwyn man and nobody complains that the Starks failed to uphold 'guest rights'.

And yes the failure to keep your men alert is the Stark generals problem. Cat could see that everything might not go to plan and considering that the Ironborn had took the North through surprise and the Tyrells and Lannister forces behind meant that the Northern army should of been far more alert.

[Minsc]

I'm not sure, but I don't think the guest rights extend to the soldiers outside the castle. When Robb calls his banners in the first book a Bolton man kills a Cerwyn man and nobody complains that the Starks failed to uphold 'guest rights'.

That is a case of a guest killing another guest, not a case where a host is killing a guest. As seen how no one condemns Roose when the Frey attacks Wyman Manderly at Winterfell despite Manderly obviously being under guest rite in respect to Roose.

Moreover, one can hardly kill a guest's men widespread while still providing the necessary protection to the guest inside. Finally, the Freys had provided substances for those men to partake in the feast as means to catch them unaware thus they were likely under the same protection.

Simply, you are attempting a stretch to better criticize the Starks.

[Light a wight tonight]

If everyone always acts true to their family's types, as Westerosi seem to believe, then Robb would've impregnated Jeyne and kept her child but left her (which is, as far as Tywin knows, what Ned did).

There is no Stark "family type". Uncle Brandon would have taken Jeynes maidenhead and gone merrily on his way, as he did with Barbrey Riswell, and likely countless others. Likewise there's no evidence that Jeyne was preggers.

[Light a wight tonight]

Um ... yea, I agree.

But Ramsay and I are saying the reason Frey wanted to pull the RW was because of Jeynegate. We think Frey only acted on this desire because Tywin was able to promise him he'd get away with it. We deny Frey would have pulled the RW, or anything like it, if Robb hadn't married Jeyne.

The RW was obviously due to Lord Walder's pique at losing Robb as a good son, but that doesn't mean that Robb was safe. He still had a bullseye between his shoulderblades. Tywin wanted him dead, and someone, either a Frey or Bolton man would have done the deed.

[The Fallen]

We deny Frey would have pulled the RW, or anything like it, if Robb hadn't married Jeyne.

I've always wondered about this and I'll ask you. If everything stayed the same save for Robb not marrying Jeyne, do you think Walder would have stayed loyal? (I guess you can throw Roose in there also.)

[Chaircat Meow]

I've always wondered about this and I'll ask you. If everything stayed the same save for Robb not marrying Jeyne, do you think Walder would have stayed loyal? (I guess you can throw Roose in there also.)

As GrrM said, there is no certain answer to what if questions.

However, I imagine Frey would have let Robb and his men pass on north, without Robb marrying one of his daughters, and then played it from there. If Tywin deployed substantial forces in the riverlands, and guaranteed Frey protection from Robb, Frey would offer to shut the bridge and switch sides. Some other riverlords might even have done the same if offered concessions, like the Brackens.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Simply, you are attempting a stretch to better criticize the Starks.

I'm not stretching I'm just referring to instances of similar events.

That is a case of a guest killing another guest, not a case where a host is killing a guest.

You do know that it was Bolton, who killed Robb, not Walder?

[Minsc]

You do know that it was Bolton, who killed Robb, not Walder?

Walder had already had men under his command shot Robb multiple times, moreover he worked in cohorts with Roose thus he is equally guilty of the murder/slaughter of his guests.