Tyrus Martell Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 On my second re-read of A Feast for Crows, one particular side detail stuck out and intrigued me. It involves Cersei recollecting the findings of Jaime Lannister, the Kingsguard and the guardsmen of King's Landing in their attempts to divulge all of the secret passages of the Red Keep after the death of Tywin. They find "half a hundred secret passages", as well as: Some of the secret crawlways had turned out to be so small that Jaime had needed pages and stableboys to explore them. A passage to the black cells had been found, and a stone well that seemed to have no bottom. They had found a chamber full of skulls and yellowed bones, and four sacks of tarnished silver coins from the reign of the first King Viserys. They had found a thousand rats as well... but neither Tyrion nor Varys had been amongst them, and Jaime had finally insisted on putting an end to the search. One boy had gotten stuck in a narrow passage and had to be pulled out by his feet, shrieking. Another fell down a shaft and broke his legs. And two guardsmen vanished exploring a side tunnel. Some of the other guards swore they could hear them calling faintly through the stone, but when Jaime's men tore down the wall they found only earth and rubble on the far side. I just found this whole passage particularly interesting given we still don't know how deep the Red Keep goes when it comes to its secret lairs and passages. I cannot fully recall, but I am sure no mention is ever made of those two unnamed guards ever being found again, and I think that's kind of creepy that the Red Keep swallows them so effectively. Granted, they must be nobodies for Cersei and Jaime not to care enough to continue the search beyond a few more days, but it's particularly concerning they let this risk go, even with all the drama that befalls King's Landing by the end of AFFC. As we know, Varys' whereabouts between the end of ASOS and the end of ADWD is unaccounted for, so perhaps the complete and utter disappearance of these two guards is a little hint he was indeed still around King's Landing (with his little birds, despite Cersei thinking she lured all of them into her service by the end of AFFC). Seeing as how Varys was so easily able to infiltrate and neutralise Pycelle and Kevan, it seems the Red Keep is forever more mysterious than we have seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reasat Stark Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 That is obvious,isn't it. The red keep is dark and full of terrors ....but as for varys himself staying in there i think not.....the lower parts are inhospitable ..he could not stay there for such a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool of a Book Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I thought it was mostly accepted that Varys was Rugen? I could certainly see him lurking about in the passages undiscovered for as long as he wanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrus Martell Posted March 4, 2014 Author Share Posted March 4, 2014 I thought it was mostly accepted that Varys was Rugen? I could certainly see him lurking about in the passages undiscovered for as long as he wanted. Yes, but Rugen's position was compromised and he was "also" forced to disappear. So yeah, Varys/Rugen just lurked under the Red Keep this whole time. That means, if he has been there right under their nose the whole time, he has been privy to every piece of development discussed in AFFC and ADWD. Though, it raises the question: why didn't he try to off Qyburn, who was in the Black Cells for the majority of AFFC? Did he think Robert Strong was another good idea for anarchy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool of a Book Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Yes, but Rugen's position was compromised and he was "also" forced to disappear. So yeah, Varys/Rugen just lurked under the Red Keep this whole time. That means, if he has been there right under their nose the whole time, he has been privy to every piece of development discussed in AFFC and ADWD. Though, it raises the question: why didn't he try to off Qyburn, who was in the Black Cells for the majority of AFFC? Did he think Robert Strong was another good idea for anarchy? Yes, that's what I meant, should have been more clear re: Rugen. As the undergaoler, he (Varys) would know all sorts of passages, and of course Varys leads the way out for Tyrion. Varys also doesn't stop Tyrion from going to Tywin's chambers. It's not made clear if he knew Shae was there or what would happen, but I think he had a good idea of exactly what would happen if Tyrion went there. Re: Qyburn, he likely knows all about what's happening with the experiments. V says something to Kevan about "we can't have anyone undoing all the good work Cersei has done." Meaning, he wants Cersei to be exposed, not only as an incestuous whore, but a patron of torture and black sorcery. So, I think that's why he left Qyburn alive. I need to find the exact quote, will add when I find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 To be honest I just think that the guardsmen happened to get lost down in the tunnels although I understand its a bit boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool of a Book Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 To be honest I just think that the guardsmen happened to get lost down in the tunnels although I understand its a bit boring. I think the opposite. The implication is that the tunnels are complex, vast, far reaching and impossible to navigate if you don't know the way, which Varys certainly seems to as OP suggests. Far from boring ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I think the opposite. The implication is that the tunnels are complex, vast, far reaching and impossible to navigate if you don't know the way, which Varys certainly seems to as OP suggests. Far from boring ;) I totally agree that the tunnels are not boring. What I think that some may think it boring is that the reason for the guardsmen to vanish is simply that they got lost and nothing more special than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen of Whores Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I find that whole passage very eerie and creepy. I hope it is kept mysterious what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reasat Stark Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I find that whole passage very eerie and creepy. I hope it is kept mysterious what happened. why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shearstone Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Weren't the tunnels made by Maegor the Cruel? Perhaps some of them lead to nowhere but a short sharp drop into a pile of spikes. It would be a good defence against anyone using them if they didn't know their way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen of Whores Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 why?Cause it's more mysterious that way, and I like mystery :dunno:I find some small things like that are creepier when it's left unexplained and to our imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reasat Stark Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Cause it's more mysterious that way, and I like mystery :dunno:I find some small things like that are creeper when it's left unexplained and to our imagination.Then keep reading the forum. they churn out mysteries every day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool of a Book Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Weren't the tunnels made by Maegor the Cruel? Perhaps some of them lead to nowhere but a short sharp drop into a pile of spikes. It would be a good defence against anyone using them if they didn't know their way around. Actually, the well that seems bottomless is the most interesting detail for me. I get the impression that there were some natural (or enhanced, for wells etc) tunnels in the hills etc in KL when Aegon first built the city, but that yes Maegar finished some construction and added secret tunnels, specifically in the Red Keep from what we know. I don't believe it's been suggested that Maegar ordered the tunnel system in the dungeons and under the city. I believe the dragonpit for example was built afterwards, as well as the mysterious tunnel to the whorehouse, and we already know about several secret passages to various gates that I don't think could have all been made by Maegar, but were added as the city expanded. Does anyone know if Varys gave Tyrion a map of the tunnels during Blackwater? I know it was on the show. ETA no I don't think that happened in the book. D&D may have added that detail to stress to viewers that Varys knows the tunnel system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Actually, the well that seems bottomless is the most interesting detail for me. I get the impression that there were some natural (or enhanced, for wells etc) tunnels in the hills etc in KL when Aegon first built the city, but that yes Maegar finished some construction and added secret tunnels, specifically in the Red Keep from what we know. I don't believe it's been suggested that Maegar ordered the tunnel system in the dungeons and under the city. I believe the dragonpit for example was built afterwards, as well as the mysterious tunnel to the whorehouse, and we already know about several secret passages to various gates that I don't think could have all been made by Maegar, but were added as the city expanded. Does anyone know if Varys gave Tyrion a map of the tunnels during Blackwater? I know it was on the show. ETA no I don't think that happened in the book. D&D may have added that detail to stress to viewers that Varys knows the tunnel system. I am perfectly sure that no map of the tunnels exists or were given and that Tyrion and his men only used the sally gates for their sorties against Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool of a Book Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I am perfectly sure that no map of the tunnels exists or were given and that Tyrion and his men only used the sally gates for their sorties against Stannis. Yes, I already ETA'd my post, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grip Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 My impression was always that they just dissapeared, got lost and couldn't find their way back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 I thought it was mostly accepted that Varys was Rugen? I could certainly see him lurking about in the passages undiscovered for as long as he wanted. GRRM confirmed this on the commentary for episode 8. So yea he's Varys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedric Justice Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Varys would not need to lurk about in these tunnels for so long. We already knw that he can enter and leave the Red Keep via these tunnels as and when he pleases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Yes, I already ETA'd my post, thanks You're welcome. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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