Heresy 103 Direwolves and Dragons

[TheTowerOfJoy]

If the Greenseer's body is still alive though and capable of moving on it's own? Hmmm... Perhaps they could attain a second life that way. My guess though is that they wouldn't be happy with a 'mortal' body, and would seek to create an immortal one instead.

[FainRivers]

Bone contains marrow, which is what generates blood cells, FWIW. So if we think these abilities are linked to blood, bones and bone marrow is a good place to go looking for it.

But with their midievel technology and medical knowlege, how would they know that bone marrow creates blood cells?

[Eira Seren]

While this may be a tad off the subject, speaking of the Direwolves, has anyone discussed the significance of the names of the direwolves in connection with the story?

We have Ghost: white wolf red eyes, of the old gods, maybe representing Westeros pre man

We have Greywind: Like Greywater watch, grey eyes of the Starks perhaps representing the arrival of the First Men into Westeros?

We have Lady: Next comes the genteel and proper Andals with their knights and their chivalry.

We then have Nymeria: the arrival of the Rhoynes being obviously led by Nymeria.

Then comes Summer: The Summer, perhaps ushered in by the Targaryens, or the long summer before the long winter

Finally Shaggydog: Maybe a reference to the shaggydog story. A story that ends abruptly and unexpectedly. An unfulfilling ending?

That's a nice rundown of history and direwolves :)

So if we take what happened to Varamyr and Orell and apply it to a Greenseer and the weirwoods, what would happen to the Greenseer if he were "inside" the tree when it was burned down? If Orell enters Varamyr when the eagle was killed, do all of the past singers inside the weirwood, enter the Greenseer if the tree is destroyed?

That's more of a two-way exchange than I realized.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

But with their midievel technology and medical knowlege, how would they know that bone marrow creates blood cells?

They wouldn't have to know it, I'm just suggesting perhaps this is where the "magic" lives in a skinchanger.

[wolfmaid7]

This is my impression, I think Haggon (and thus Varamyr) was wrong, at least some portion of skin changers can continue to jump between bodies.

Bloodraven tells Bran that all of the ravens have children inside him - that's thousands of ravens just in the flock that was following coldhands around. We're also told there are only a few score (60-80?) children left, with only 1 in a 1000 being a skinchanger.

Simple math dictates that either there are hundreds of thousands of children hiding somewhere, or skinchangers live forever (Others maybe?).

it might be prudent to think in line of who is speaking and how lives are measured,we have no idea the life span of a COTF. They may live for hundreds or thousands of years.Thus the time it takes for them to fade and become a shadow maybe longer.But that is all they become a shadow on the soul that eventually makes the Crows smarter or more humanistic .The entire theme of animism in this story is repeated again.Its like receiving an software update.

Plus i don't think "singers" are restricted to COTF,but any skinchanger that will leave his shadow in and animal.That said animal would be easier for another skinchanger to ride because its been worn before.

I still find the idea that Varamyr believes that the ability to skinchange ends with the death of the host body interesting. When Bran enters Hodor's body he seems to pretty much exert complete control over Hodor, Hodor basically retreats deep inside himself, but otherwise Bran is free to do anything that Hodor could do.

I wonder if GRRM is setting Bran up for Bloodraven to take over Bran's body in a similar fashion. Depending on the strengh of Bloodraven's talent might he be able to force Bran into a subservient role and then take over both Bran's body and his abiltiy to skinchange?

This forced "skinchanging" exhibited by Bran is no different to what V6 did with his animals. Hodor didn't invite him to do so,so it was an invasion.It was able to work because of Hodor's simpleness,so i don't think BR can subdue Bran's spirit.He may draw on his strength with Summer for that,plus i think BR is cool with what's about to happen.

This might also be an appropriate time to discuss the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" principle, which seems to get quite an abusive workout on these boards.

If you have a strong precedent for a certain thing... and no counterexamples... it is probably more reasonable to accept the precedent than the opposite of the precedent.

For instance, I don't buy the idea of a giant secretly living in Flea Bottom beause we've never heard of any such thing. Though somewhat possible, it would be a freakish situation.

If someone told me "There could still be a giant living in Flea Bottom -- absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!" I would just blink and decide not to respond.

We've similarly never heard of a Targ having multiple wives in over 200 years. It's possible Rhaegar suddenly decided to break this strong precedent, but I would call that a freakish event and need serious evidence before believing it. But there isn't any evidence (that I consider serious).

Along the same lines, I do tend to think Varamyr is really gone from One-Eye's brain, or very soon will be. He was apparently never able, in his life, to find any precedent for the idea that he could hang on to his identity, in a host animal, for very long. Nor have we found such precedent in the series.

So at most I would expect him to leave faint traces, as skinchangers have left traces in the ravens in Bloodraven's cave.

Agree!

With Bran inside Hodor, he takes complete control. But if Bran completely left his body it seems he would stay inside Hodor for the rest of his life. Would that break his warg bond?

Varamyr was trying to do this human change thing. To take over Thistle's body with all of hisself. Their Spirits were fighting for control of the body. Could he instead have pushed his way into an animal and taken complete control?

I think the original body is the anchor that keeps the link and it ma have to do with blood.

Returning to the direwolves, although its obviously a bit of a two way process, I'm still very much inclined to see it not as the Starks warging their wolves, but the other way around. The wolves have established themselves inside Jon, Bran and the others, which is why they have been having wolf dreams; seeing and understanding what the wolves see in their terms - "man rock" etc.

It does raise an interesting question though. If the Wolves are actually the dominant partners, are the Crows the dominant partners in the bond with the Singers?

I don't think the wolves are dominant,i believe they do initiate,but its like calling to like.They are equal to their proxies.The Crows i would say are the same they allow you to,but its equal after.

I think with this generation of Starks, the Direwolves made the warg connection possible. The Starks have always had the warging ability but they needed the Direwolves for the ability to awaken in them.

So it could be that you need the right animal first to have the skinchanging and warging ability.

True true

Varamyr is also thinking in wolf terms when in his wolves... I agree that it's a two-way process, but I don't see the wolves as dominant partners. In as much that they probably initiated the bond, yes, but in using the bond, no.

I wouldn't say that,V6 knew he was V6.He spoke about one eye as one eye,and him as him.He never saw himself equal with them because he wasn't.He was their yoke.

I agree that this is a possibility. What if the Night's King is inhabiting a current character via this route? Say Bloodraven himself or perhaps Roose Bolton? Maybe Craster and one of the mutineers?

To deux machina do be honest,an immortal jumping body to body for years and years.Too much.

Except that Orell did leave the eagle's body and entered Varamyr's body when the eagle was burned.

The reason that Bloodraven (or whoever is inhabiting Bloodraven, Tower of Joy brought up an interesting point above) may not have taken over Bran, is that he may need to continue to develop Bran's ability to a certain level before he takes him over. My guess is (if any of this is at all accurate) is once he takes over Bran he takes over the body with the abilities as they exist.

This is too godlike and i think outside of what GRRM has set up so far.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Except that Orell did leave the eagle's body and entered Varamyr's body when the eagle was burned.

Yes but Orell will fade to a shadow in time. And Orell was only a part of the birds consciousness. Then Orell, through the bird, influenced Varamyr.

[Black Crow]

While this may be a tad off the subject, speaking of the Direwolves, has anyone discussed the significance of the names of the direwolves in connection with the story?

We have Ghost: white wolf red eyes, of the old gods, maybe representing Westeros pre man

We have Greywind: Like Greywater watch, grey eyes of the Starks perhaps representing the arrival of the First Men into Westeros?

We have Lady: Next comes the genteel and proper Andals with their knights and their chivalry.

We then have Nymeria: the arrival of the Rhoynes being obviously led by Nymeria.

Then comes Summer: The Summer, perhaps ushered in by the Targaryens, or the long summer before the long winter

Finally Shaggydog: Maybe a reference to the shaggydog story. A story that ends abruptly and unexpectedly. An unfulfilling ending?

Its an interesting way of looking at things and given GRRM's predilection for layered meanings there might well be something of that nature in it, nevertheless the primary meanings are more direct and again related to the probability not only of the direwolves initiating the bond but of choosing their appropriate partners as well.

Ghost and Jon are the most obviously apt pairings and it still astonishes me that given his undoubted link through Ghost to the Old Gods that in another place Jon is still seen as a Targaryen. Balancing Ghost is Summer, not because Bran named him Summer but because Bran realised that was actually his name all along. I also think that he represents not a long summer but a True Summer, one that is in balance with Winter. I can't help wondering though that if to his siblings he smells of Summer, is Ghost treated warily not because he is a cuckoo in the nest, but because he smells of Winter; because he has a cold smell about him?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I wouldn't say that,V6 knew he was V6.He spoke about one eye as one eye,and him as him.He never saw himself equal with them because he wasn't.He was their yoke.

All the wargs see themselves as themselves. It is important to keep the human and the animal seperated.

Here is something from Jojen and Bran

"I want you to say the words. Tell me who you are.'

'Bran,' he said sullenly....'Brandon Stark'...'The prince of Winterfell.'

'And who is Summer?' Jojen prompted.

'My direwolf.' He smiled. 'Prince of the green'

'Bran the boy and Summer the wolf. You are two, then?'

'Two' he sighed, 'and one.'

'Remember that, Bran. Remember yourself, or the wolf will consume you...."

[Black Crow]

That does rather suggest that the wolf is the dominant partner.

Interesting that Bran refers to him as the Prince of the Green, which again sounds like a reference to True Summer.

[wolfmaid7]

All the wargs see themselves as themselves. It is important to keep the human and the animal seperated.

Here is something from Jojen and Bran

"I want you to say the words. Tell me who you are.'

'Bran,' he said sullenly....'Brandon Stark'...'The prince of Winterfell.'

'And who is Summer?' Jojen prompted.

'My direwolf.' He smiled. 'Prince of the green'

'Bran the boy and Summer the wolf. You are two, then?'

'Two' he sighed, 'and one.'

'Remember that, Bran. Remember yourself, or the wolf will consume you...."

V6 is not a Warg though,it is what he pridefully calls himself because that is what he aspired to be. He was a powerful skinchanger that's that bent the will of every animal he had,including his wolves.Instead of being happy with one animal he chose to collect many.He spoke about collecting them...V3 skins,then 4.

As Haggon said,"wolves like women mate for life,you take one and that's a marriage". The bolded part being the operative,he took "all" the animals he had in tow.The wolves he had,like the dogs of his childhood,like the Shadowcat etc did not initiate the bond with him.They did not allow the bond,but was subdued by a creature that knew how to break wills.

What the Starks have with the Direwolves is not a bond of their own making,the wolves initiated and that makes the bond different. Jojen who is not a Warg nor a skinchanger is no doubt giving him advice that stems from the same advice given to V6 by Haggon.Spend time with them ,you look like them act like them....But that is not the case with the Stark kids.

However,despite Jojen's advice,when both Bran and Jon are speaking about their relationship they DO NOT differentiate between themselves and the DWs. Jon like Bran have made the statement. I AM SUMMER....I AM GHOST...AND HE IS ME.

This is the conflict they are continuously having...Jojen telling Bran he is not a wolf (untrue) Jon trying to convince himself he is not a wolf ( untrue) because essentially they are.

No one had thought it strange that the EXACT number of wolves match the Starks perfectly including a white one for the bastard call Snow. Not even BR could pull off that.

Also note V6 has to go looking for his animals to regain the bond when they aren't with him.Hence the reason the Shadow cat always fought like crazy.But the Wolves he wore so many time were easy to find and regain control of.If we also listen to V6 his connection is spatial.

The wolves would hunt for him,but he never knew when the killed,like Jon who was able to feel blood in his mouth when Ghost had hunted. V6 never spoke of having wolfdreams either,he gave us a huge speal about his childhood about his first time with the dogs.....Never once did he mention any kind of dreams,nor did Haggon speak of it.

The only person who ever spoke about a wolfdream was Qhorin with Jon,god knows how he knew what it was.

This to me is the difference between the garden variety and a Stark warg...

[aDanceWithFlagons]

That does rather suggest that the wolf is the dominant partner.

Interesting that Bran refers to him as the Prince of the Green, which again sounds like a reference to True Summer.

Good catch with the Prince of the Green and Summer. I like the idea of Ghost having a cold scent. Not sure about the dominant part though. Only as far as the bond goes, yes. But not on the outside. They still obey (as much as a wolf will obey) the Starks.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

V6 is not a Warg though,it is what he pridefully calls himself because that is what he aspired to be. He was a powerful skinchanger that's that bent the will of every animal he had,including his wolves.Instead of being happy with one animal he chose to collect many.He spoke about collecting them...V3 skins,then 4.

As Haggon said,"wolves like women mate for life,you take one and that's a marriage". The bolded part being the operative,he took "all" the animals he had in tow.The wolves he had,like the dogs of his childhood,like the Shadowcat etc did not initiate the bond with him.They did not allow the bond,but was subdued by a creature that knew how to break wills.

What the Starks have with the Direwolves is not a bond of their own making,the wolves initiated and that makes the bond different. Jojen who is not a Warg nor a skinchanger is no doubt giving him advice that stems from the same advice given to V6 by Haggon.Spend time with them ,you look like them act like them....But that is not the case with the Stark kids.

However,despite Jojen's advice,when both Bran and Jon are speaking about their relationship they DO NOT differentiate between themselves and the DWs. Jon like Bran have made the statement. I AM SUMMER....I AM GHOST...AND HE IS ME.

This is the conflict they are continuously having...Jojen telling Bran he is not a wolf (untrue) Jon trying to convince himself he is not a wolf ( untrue) because essentially they are.

No one had thought it strange that the EXACT number of wolves match the Starks perfectly including a white one for the bastard call Snow. Not even BR could pull off that.

Also note V6 has to go looking for his animals to regain the bond when they aren't with him.Hence the reason the Shadow cat always fought like crazy.But the Wolves he wore so many time were easy to find and regain control of.If we also listen to V6 his connection is spatial.

The wolves would hunt for him,but he never knew when the killed,like Jon who was able to feel blood in his mouth when Ghost had hunted. V6 never spoke of having wolfdreams either,he gave us a huge speal about his childhood about his first time with the dogs.....Never once did he mention any kind of dreams,nor did Haggon speak of it.

The only person who ever spoke about a wolfdream was Qhorin with Jon,god knows how he knew what it was.

This to me is the difference between the garden variety and a Stark warg...

Nope. Varamyr is a warg.

I have said numerous times I believe the direwolves and Starks are different than the average warg.

[JNR]

With respect we have been told that Targaryens did have multiple wives. We were also told that Elia could have no more children, and we were shown a vision of Rhaegar saying that there must be one more. We also know that Rhaegar was looking at ancient prophecies and practices of the Targaryens.

So while I do think it should only be considered a possible theory, I think there is at least is some evidence that it could be true.

The above is certainly related information. It's just not what I would call serious evidence.

For instance, drawn from the above, Rhaegar said "there must be one more" in a vision. Did that mean "I must have another child?" Not clear. If it did, did that child have to be legitimate? Not clear. We just have some vaguely related notions.

Similarly, giants are very tall. Dunk is very tall. And Dunk is from Flea Bottom. These three facts are related information. But it's a stretch to say that Dunk being from Flea Bottom is serious evidence that there are giants in Flea Bottom.

If I remember correctly, didn't Jojen or Meera have a helmet, presumably from the Knight of the Laughing Tree's armor?

You do remember correctly, it was Meera, and like you, I see that as suggestive of the KotLT story.

[Eira Seren]

All the wargs see themselves as themselves. It is important to keep the human and the animal seperated.

Here is something from Jojen and Bran

"I want you to say the words. Tell me who you are.'

'Bran,' he said sullenly....'Brandon Stark'...'The prince of Winterfell.'

'And who is Summer?' Jojen prompted.

'My direwolf.' He smiled. 'Prince of the green'

'Bran the boy and Summer the wolf. You are two, then?'

'Two' he sighed, 'and one.'

'Remember that, Bran. Remember yourself, or the wolf will consume you...."

The devil's really in the details! Good job you and BC!

[Eira Seren]

This to me is the difference between the garden variety and a Stark warg...

Snowfyre would probably also point out that the Stark variety warg has likely been cultivated.

[JNR]

V6 never spoke of having wolfdreams either,he gave us a huge speal about his childhood about his first time with the dogs.....Never once did he mention any kind of dreams,nor did Haggon speak of it.

Interesting point. It does suggest to me a much stronger connection between the Starks and their wolves -- one so strong it can assert itself when the human loses consciousness.

What we haven't seen is a case in which both Summer and Bran are conscious, and Summer slips into Bran's skin and starts doing things. Quite a freaky experience for Bran that would be.

This has, however, been proposed as happening occasionally to Jon, such as when he was fighting Iron Emmett and went berserk. And possibly also in Jon's last scene in DwD.

If it proves true, it may be because Ghost's consciousness is more advanced than the other direwolves'... which in turn would have been foreshadowed by his eyes opening before theirs did.

[wolfmaid7]

Nope. Varamyr is a warg.

I have said numerous times I believe the direwolves and Starks are different than the average warg.

Anyhow you slice it, be it you say V6 is Warg and I say he

Isn't the issue is clear their relationship with their familiars are not the same and because of that telling Bran he is separate from Summer isn't going to do him good.

V6 said Haggon taught him the "way" of the Warg and the secrets of skinchanging .Which seems two different things .So one must ask ourselves "what is the way of the Warg? Based on his behavior did v6 learn the way of the Warg? Could he?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Well, we are not shown a direwolf pov with an awake Stark in it. It seems the power can flow both ways, to an extent.

ETA "The boy promises. Will the wolf remember? You run with Summer, you hunt with him, kill with him... but you bend to his will more than him to yours."

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Anyhow you slice it, be it you say V6 is Warg and I say he

Isn't the issue is clear their relationship with their familiars are not the same and because of that telling Bran he is separate from Summer isn't going to do him good.

V6 said Haggon taught him the "way" of the Warg and the secrets of skinchanging .Which seems two different things .So one must ask ourselves "what is the way of the Warg? Based on his behavior did v6 learn the way of the Warg? Could he?

I never said the the Starks and direwolves are the same as Varamyr. It is obvious, what Jojen told Bran was for the good.

[nanother]

Well, we are not shown a direwolf pov with an awake Stark in it. It seems the power can flow both ways, to an extent.

In ADwD when they're looking for shelter:

“Summer can find the village,” Bran said suddenly, his words misting in the air. He did not wait

to hear what Meera might say, but closed his eyes and let himself flow from his broken body.

As he slipped inside Summer’s skin, the dead woods came to sudden life. Where before there

had been silence, now he heard: wind in the trees, Hodor’s breathing, the elk pawing at the ground in

search of fodder. Familiar scents filled his nostrils: wet leaves and dead grass, the rotted carcass of a

squirrel decaying in the brush, the sour stink of man-sweat, the musky odor of the elk. Food. Meat. The

elk sensed his interest. He turned his head toward the direwolf, wary, and lowered his great antlers.

He is not prey, the boy whispered to the beast who shared his skin. Leave him. Run.

Summer ran. Across the lake he raced, his paws kicking up sprays of snow behind him. The trees

stood shoulder to shoulder, like men in a battle line, all cloaked in white. Over roots and rocks the

direwolf sped, through a drift of old snow, the crust crackling beneath his weight. His paws grew wet

and cold. The next hill was covered with pines, and the sharp scent of their needles filled the air. When

he reached the top, he turned in a circle, sniffing at the air, then raised his head and howled.

The smells were there. Mansmells.

Ashes, Bran thought, old and faint, but ashes. It was the smell of burnt wood, soot, and charcoal.

A dead fire.

He shook the snow off his muzzle. The wind was gusting, so the smells were hard to follow. The

wolf turned this way and that, sniffing. All around were heaps of snow and tall trees garbed in white.

The wolf let his tongue loll out between his teeth, tasting the frigid air, his breath misting as snow-flakes

melted on his tongue. When he trotted toward the scent, Hodor lumbered after him at once. The elk

took longer to decide, so Bran returned reluctantly to his own body and said, “That way. Follow

Summer. I smelled it.”

Also, from ACoK when they're hiding in the crypts:

“Is it day or night up there?” Osha wondered. “I’ve lost all count o’ such.”

“Day,” Bran told her, “but it’s dark from all the smoke.”

“M’Iord is certain?”

Never moving his broken body, he reached out all the same, and for an instant he was seeing double. There stood Osha holding the torch, and Meera and jojen and Hodor, and the double row of tall granite pillars and long dead lords behind them stretching away into darkness . . . but there was Winterfell as well, grey with drifting smoke, the massive oakand-iron gates charred and askew, the drawbridge down in a tangle of broken chains and missing planks. Bodies floated in the moat, islands for the crows.

“Certain,” he declared.