The exchange of principles for power: story arcs of self destruction, and salvation.

[OberynBlackfyre]

So within the books, we have seen many characters change. Some of them made the hcange themselves from greed, or lust for power, etc. And some of them were simply put into the position of having to change. Others also exchanged their principles for the hope of increased power. What story arc do you guys think was the most drastic, or the most entertaining?

**disclaimer: Lets keep everything from the books, and don't include personal issues or biased towards characters. You can say which story arc you like and why, and which you don't and why, but please keep it within good taste and not start a flame war.

For me, I think the two most changing story arcs, are Jaime and Arya.

*Arya's story alone would make for a GREAT book. Also, out of pretty much every character, I feel like she has the most tragic of story simply because what happens to her isn't necessarily her fault. She has always been a wild, independent girl, however she still held family close to her heart. She also (in the beginning) cares about other people, and what is fair and what is not. The show Arya shows a little more the outward emotion where in the books we get her thoughts. things like when she was feeling abandoned by Hot Pie and Gendry, and how Weasel bothered her but in the end she still tried her best to care for her. I mean she even mourned Lommy even though he was a dick to her. From Arya Stark to Blood child was a long, hard road full of heartache. It makes me feel sad that she relishes killing people now, but I somehow feel like she is justified in this feeling as the road and her story has taught her that death is really the only way of keeping you and your loved ones safe.

*Jaimes story is another of the POV chapters that I think could be made into a book/movie all on its own. I admire his character because I have never really experienced a character in any series of books or movies that I border line hated, then ended up rooting for. This is attributed to GRRM's great writing, but also the character of Jaime himself. What he is, is a knight that has been corrupted by falling in love with the wrong person. I think if Cersei had not been in the picture, and Tywin was a better father, Jaime could have been Arthur Dayne 2.0. However, as we meet him as the Kingslayer who flings children from windows, who kills men in the streets, we see someone who seems to want to "win" at all costs. However, after he worms his way out of chains, his mouth gets him into something he can never change; the loss of his hand. Now, I want to argue the fact that I believe Jaime's transformation started at the beginning of his and Briennes trek to take him back to Kings Landing, however it then magnified after the loss of his hand. I don't believe that the loss of his hand was the start of his epiphany, but rather a part of it. I can honestly say his POV is one of the most curious and exciting stories I've read.

*ones that I am disappointed in*

-Sansas story is one that was hard for me to read at first. She was just so innocent and somewhat naive that I could do nothing but feel bad for her. I wanted to think that eventually she would get some armor other than her courtesies, however as the story progressed she somehow managed to somewhat stay the same. She was always looking for her prince or someone else to save her. I do think that in the end, Sansa will have probably one of the most shocking and interesting POV's, however I think we are only BARELY getting to see her changing in the FIFTH BOOK. I think that GRRM should have started giving her some cunning and control whilst she was still in Kings Landing. Especially being the under the sinister tutelage of Cersei. I definitely feel more of the victim feel from her, rather than a person that is learning the game.

-Tyrion. tyrion, Tyrion, Tyrion. I love the little guy, he is one of my favorite characters, however I am just so sad at what he has become. ADWD really made me see how far he had devolved....and while he still had the cunning, he lost the principles he once had. Plus he still keeps his weakness to flesh. I think that after Shae he would almost want to put off sex with whores for a while. Not to mention I believe that he treated Jaime way too harshly. I understand the betrayal he felt, however Jaime had JUST saved his life. I believe that is a fair exchange, especially for everything that Jaime has done with him in the past. Also, I think everyone thinking that Tyrion is one of the "good guys" kind of clearly showed me that he really wasn't. He is another Tywin, albeit with maybe more restraint. But now he is a Tywin with even LESS principles. I think Moqorros vision of Tyrion smirking in the middle of flames and war with dragons is going to be accurate, as he is too involved now with his self hatred, and the hatred for the rest of his family. Especially wanting to KILL Jaime, which I feel is a very unfair disposition for him to have.

what story arcs do you guys like/dislike? And also don't argue with me if you don't agree, this is a place to discuss story arcs, not a thread about how much any character has relevance or is beloved to you for such and such reasons and therefore can do no wrong. Thank you! :D

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Personally I would read a whole book series strictly about Sansa. :D. I find her quite compelling and unique, especially compared to fantasy literature. In most fantasy books women are allowed to fall in certain archetype like Lady Knight, good queen, evil queen, the mother, seductress etc. and Sansa breaks that mold for me. So I would say that I absolutely adore Sansa's narrative.

[The Bastard of Walton]

Jaime's arc is the one that jumps to mind. Him kind of regaining a part of himself that got left in the sacking of Kings Landing is really great.

Think the OP summed it up well.

Jon & the Nightswatch as well, never get tired of his story.

Love Berric Dondarrion & the BWB, not really a arc as we Only get little story's of what they where up to from other people, but they always remind me of Robin Hood & I'm a big fan of Robin Hood.

Roberts Rebellion (Probably doesn't count) this arc is my favourite. Love every flashback to this time period & would love to read more about it.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Jaime's arc is the one that jumps to mind. Him kind of regaining a part of himself that got left in the sacking of Kings Landing is really great.

Think the OP summed it up well.

Jon & the Nightswatch as well, never get tired of his story.

Love Berric Dondarrion & the BWB, not really a arc as we Only get little story's of what they where up to from other people, but they always remind me of Robin Hood & I'm a big fan of Robin Hood.

Roberts Rebellion (Probably doesn't count) this arc is my favourite. Love every flashback to this time period & would love to read more about it.

I agree that Jon and the NW are really awesome, and a story unto themselves!!!

Also, I'm really so sad we never got a POV that was with Berric and TBWB, simply because I think they could have shown the vast suffering of the smallfolk within Westeros, and hammer home GRRM's opinion of war ill effecting the "little people".

Personally I would read a whole book series strictly about Sansa. :D. I find her quite compelling and unique, especially compared to fantasy literature. In most fantasy books women are allowed to fall in certain archetype like Lady Knight, good queen, evil queen, the mother, seductress etc. and Sansa breaks that mold for me. So I would say that I absolutely adore Sansa's narrative.

I definitely think that in the end, Sansas story will be a like a medieval spy movie, however her story in the books for me (atm) is kind of like me waiting for something in herself to actually change. She started getting more texture within the Vale, but I just wish they had expanded on that a little bit more.

[Wmarshal]

Sansa's is one of my favorites, as are Dany's and Tyrion's, Brienne's and Bran's etc..

I enjoy Sansa's for her character development.

I love Tyrion's because his blindness and overestimating his own intelligence is quiet funny. I busted my gut when Varys played him.

Dany's I like because quietly of ignorance ad self importance is worthy of it's own tragic hero book. A villain who does not realize she is a villain beautiful.

Brienne's I like for the action.

I can't really pick what arcs I hate, because they are all great.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Sansa's is one of my favorites, as are Dany's and Tyrion's, Brienne's and Bran's etc..

I enjoy Sansa's for her character development.

I love Tyrion's because his blindness and overestimating his own intelligence is quiet funny. I busted my gut when Varys played him.

Dany's I like because quietly of ignorance ad self importance is worthy of it's own tragic hero book. A villain who does not realize she is a villain beautiful.

Brienne's I like for the action.

I can't really pick what arcs I hate, because they are all great.

I agree about Tyrions arc. I really would have chosen him as one of the favorites, but his arc is so intertwined with others, it would be hard to give him his own actual story.

[Wmarshal]

I agree about Tyrions arc. I really would have chosen him as one of the favorites, but his arc is so intertwined with others, it would be hard to give him his own actual story.

I wonder why D&D went over the top with everyone thinking he was smart, when the comedy gold was his stupide.

[The_Bull]

As for self destruction headed toward salvation, I have to go with Theon

[Lady Woodland]

For me Dany's story is probably the one that speaks most to me that evokes, those three elements.

Power: - her journey of awakening & self awareness brought thoughts of the birthright she always thought of as her brother Viserys, when she becomes pregnant & is adored by her Khal, her brother dies & she has no trouble at that point, wanting the IT & considers it her destiny.

Self Destruction: She thows the dice & gambles with fate in the whole MMD & loss of her child & Khal thing.

Salvation: Through her loss she becomes a better person, understanding the terrible outcome her actions have brought & uses her dragons to try to change the world she is living in & save the people around her.

That being said I think almost all the characters are going through some form of metamorphosis & I love reading their developments.

[the conquoring bastard25]

Tyrion is one that I wouldn't mind seeing by itself. The imp is one of my favorite characters in litarture of all times. He's funny and he's not afraid to laugh at himself. He's the first to say whatever negative your going to say about him first. Then is interactions with some of my other favorite characters are priceless. His time with Jon Snow was interesting and I could see these two sitting in a bar somewhere talking about their 99 problems but a hoe being one. I generally cheer when Tyrion gets one over on someone. As to the Op, I read somewhere about this author that wrote a book called the dwarf. The guy set out to write this dwarf character as the most hated and despised and morally black character he could come up with. Anyways at the end the dwarf promises to come back because his prince would have need of his dwarf again. When I read that line I could help but think of Tyrion and some of the struggles he's gone through only for at some point the realm is going to have need of him again. Also the to the Op about Tyrion and him becoming Tywin without any moral compass I think that GRRM is showing us how a person that with the reputation as being evil but has good intend can still give into their darker nature. Especially when life keeps giving one constant kicks. So yeah I could totally see Tyrion give into his baser nature and become quite the monster.

As to Sansa, I can't stand her. I have never liked her for most of reasons that the Op mentions. She's just tooo... I don't know but something about her bugs me. I have to pretend that she some of my favorite female historical figures to get through her POV or hope that there are some interesting political tidbits that I might find useful later. She treats my main man Tyrion and Jon like shit and I understand that Jon's just a bastard and Tyrion is a Lannister, but cut them some slack they have never done you any harm.

I love Jamie, while I don't agree with most of the things that he's done in game or up until he losses his sword hand as payment for one that struck one of the royal blood. I think that he's being set up to be a lann the clever character as he's starting to use his head now that he's claws have been pulled.

I would like to see less of miss Dany Blood of the Dragon my ass. Sociopath, killing...Anyways just no.

Love Jon and Bloodraven.

[ovis alba]

One of the most entertaining to me is Cersei. I love the POV style of the books and I really try to read the chapters really "subjectively" by siding with the character, trying to put the more objective view and the judging on the side.

And concerning that Cersei might be a little tough in the beginning but I somehow love being "in her head" (which makes me a little bit worried about my sanity :lol: ) this progression towards really getting insane is somehow a interesting experience.

[TheSnape]

-Tyrion. tyrion, Tyrion, Tyrion. I love the little guy, he is one of my favorite characters, however I am just so sad at what he has become. ADWD really made me see how far he had devolved....and while he still had the cunning, he lost the principles he once had. Plus he still keeps his weakness to flesh. I think that after Shae he would almost want to put off sex with whores for a while. Not to mention I believe that he treated Jaime way too harshly. I understand the betrayal he felt, however Jaime had JUST saved his life. I believe that is a fair exchange, especially for everything that Jaime has done with him in the past. Also, I think everyone thinking that Tyrion is one of the "good guys" kind of clearly showed me that he really wasn't. He is another Tywin, albeit with maybe more restraint. But now he is a Tywin with even LESS principles. I think Moqorros vision of Tyrion smirking in the middle of flames and war with dragons is going to be accurate, as he is too involved now with his self hatred, and the hatred for the rest of his family. Especially wanting to KILL Jaime, which I feel is a very unfair disposition for him to have.

Maybe Tyrion just is suffering from PTSD? He was accused of kingslaying wrongly, when the Tyrells were too cowardly to admit their crime and set him up to be framed. He found out that he's lived a lie- the woman he thought was a whore, was actually someone who genuinely loved him, and Jaime had lied to him his whole life, whilst being mocked, sentenced and judged in court. That will fuck a person up for life.

Most sufferers of PTSD get to rest somewhere, chill out. But Tyrion is shipped off to Essos, he has to find Dany Targaryen, he gets taken as a slave instead of the rest he needs. Maybe he did do a few things which were fucked up (although the incident with the slave girl in Ilyrio's house, he only threatened her), but any other character in his position would have done far worse in his circumstances.

[Roxane De]

I first hated the fact that Jorah ended up trying to find Dany-looking whores, but it makes so much sense. A lot of people think they are in love with somebody but they actually fell in love with the idealized image of somebody instead. Jorah's love for Dany was an immature idolization and was never sincere in the first place. Jorah's whole value system is crooked anyway although he is "well intentionned" but hey, you know what we say about good intentions and how the roads of hell are paved with them.

I think there are two kinds of arcs: the ones who are first really satisfying to read (Dany becoming mother of the dragons, Arya becoming an assassin) but that will turn up to become sour and then you have to ones who are bitter at first (Theon make a bad choice for the Stark children, Tyrion becoming a slave and an a**hole) that will turn out to be great at the end.