Septa Lemore identity (and why it matters) v.2

[Charles snow]

I could see Lemore=Ashara as a possibility and people against the theory have mentioned how Ashara's eyes were well knows as haunting purple while Tyrion never mentions Lemore's but a little know fact about eye color is that it can change over time. Look back at a famous NatGeo magazine cover with a teenage girl with beautiful and unique eyes, then when the photographer who took the photo goes back to find her he eventually does and finds that her eyes are a different color.

[Starspear]

Eyes come up as the single argument against Ashara = Lemore. Valid argument but weak argument as we are in a magical world. There are face-morphers. Glamour. Who knows what other type of magic. Everything else fits. No guarantee of course till confirmations come from the novels, but everything fits.

[Ygrain]

Eyes come up as the single argument against Ashara = Lemore. Valid argument but weak argument as we are in a magical world. There are face-morphers. Glamour. Who knows what other type of magic. Everything else fits. No guarantee of course till confirmations come from the novels, but everything fits.

If you think so, you apparently didn't read the previous threads very carefully.

[Starspear]

If you think so, you apparently didn't read the previous threads very carefully.

And which threads are you referring to?

[nedhed]

Ok, I see your POV. In book one Eddard Stark goes out of his way to make sure her name is never mentioned again at Winterfell. (People were gossiping). Interesting.

Adding to this, what Ned Dayne tells Arya about Wylla and Ashara is interesting, and I think leads further credence to the idea that Ashare had motives other than her friendship with Elia to fake her death and foster Aegon. First, he tells Arya that he and Jon are milk brothers via Wylla, who he says was long in service to his house. He also tells Arya that his aunt Allyria told him that Ned Stark and Ashara fell in love at Harrenhall and that she committed suicide because of her broken heart. We also hear from others that Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's best friend.

So, something is rotten in Starfall. The Wylla story just doesn't add up- it seems like it's just the party line. Why would Ned be sleeping with Wylla in Starfall when Ashara, who is in love with him and smoking good looking, is right there? Why would Wylla sleep with Ned if she's so loyal to house Dayne, given that Ashara is in love with him?

I'm really starting to convince myself that Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne conspired in Starfall to protect Aegon and Jon, Ashara's "broken heart" being a cover to give her a motive to "commit suicide" and the Wyylla story being a cover to protect Jon. I think the Dayyne-Targ alliance ran through Arthur and Rhaegar and Ashara took up her brother's cause. And I think Allyria and Wylla probably know the truth of it.

ETA: Ashara being loyal to Rhaegar's child because of her brother is symetrical to Ned being loyal to Rhaegar's child because of his sister. Furthermore, why would House Dayne name its heir/now-lord Ned if Ned Stark were really responsible for the deaths of both Arthur and Ashara?

[Starspear]

Adding to this, what Ned Dayne tells Arya about Wylla and Ashara is interesting, and I think leads further credence to the idea that Ashare had motives other than her friendship with Elia to fake her death and foster Aegon. First, he tells Arya that he and Jon are milk brothers via Wylla, who he says was long in service to his house. He also tells Arya that his aunt Allyria told him that Ned Stark and Ashara fell in love at Harrenhall and that she committed suicide because of her broken heart. We also hear from others that Arthur Dayne was Rhaegar's best friend.

So, something is rotten in Starfall. The Wylla story just doesn't add up- it seems like it's just the party line. Why would Ned be sleeping with Wylla in Starfall when Ashara, who is in love with him and smoking good looking, is right there? Why would Wylla sleep with Ned if she's so loyal to house Dayne, given that Ashara is in love with him?

I'm really starting to convince myself that Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne conspired in Starfall to protect Aegon and Jon, Ashara's "broken heart" being a cover to give her a motive to "commit suicide" and the Wyylla story being a cover to protect Jon. I think the Dayyne-Targ alliance ran through Arthur and Rhaegar and Ashara took up her brother's cause. And I think Allyria and Wylla probably know the truth of it.

ETA: Ashara being loyal to Rhaegar's child because of her brother is symetrical to Ned being loyal to Rhaegar's child because of his sister. Furthermore, why would House Dayne name its heir/now-lord Ned if Ned Stark were really responsible for the deaths of both Arthur and Ashara?

Good post!

[ipsuel]

Really like the Vertigo reference (ty, Hippocras, it's new to me) ... And doesn't "d'entre les morts" (the title of book vertigo was made from) literally mean... from among the dead?

Seems like a good name for Ashara if she were masquerading as Lemore, yes? (Although it's a little JK Rowling-ish). Lemore=from the dead=Ashara.

I'm on board with the theory and in no way think that we're privy to every thought Tyrion has (re: the eyes)... but clearly the group is a group of pretenders, all working together for (f)Aegon... it's perfectly plausible.

Is it fact? No. Is it plausible? Absolutely.

[Starspear]

Really like the Vertigo reference (ty, Hippocras, it's new to me) ... And doesn't "d'entre les morts" (the title of book vertigo was made from) literally mean... from among the dead?

Seems like a good name for Ashara if she were masquerading as Lemore, yes? (Although it's a little JK Rowling-ish). Lemore=from the dead=Ashara.

I'm on board with the theory and in no way think that we're privy to every thought Tyrion has (re: the eyes)... but clearly the group is a group of pretenders, all working together for (f)Aegon... it's perfectly plausible.

Is it fact? No. Is it plausible? Absolutely.

D'entre les morts translates roughly between deaths.

Although from among the dead could also be a figurative interpretation.

[ipsuel]

I don't speak French (too bad it's not German or Korean -- then I'd know) -- but in Google Translate (which is often incorrect, granted), in Babylon, in SDL and in Microsoft -- it translates from French to English as:

"from the dead"

ETA: spelling

[Starspear]

I don't speak French (too bad it's not German or Korean -- then I'd know) -- but in Google Translate (which is often incorrect, granted), in Babylon, in SDL and in Microsoft -- it translates from French to English as:

"from the dead"

ETA: spelling

I do.

Trivia note: From Among the Dead was the original title of Vertigo.

[ipsuel]

I do.

Trivia note: From Among the Dead was the original title of Vertigo.

Well that works, too, really... "from among the dead, I mean"... far better than "between deaths" actually. But again, it's kinda JK Rowling-ish and I kinda feel like GRRM wouldn't do that.

I would love lemore to be Ashara but it may just be the most obvious answer here: Lemore is completely set-up as a red-herring

[Starspear]

Well that works, too, really... "from among the dead, I mean"... far better than "between deaths" actually. But again, it's kinda JK Rowling-ish and I kinda feel like GRRM wouldn't do that.

I would love lemore to be Ashara but it may just be the most obvious answer here: Lemore is completely set-up as a red-herring

It's a very subtle, obscure reference. I think GRRM figured he could sneak it by unnoticed.

Ashara (and Starfall as a whole) have mysteries purposefully set up. There is unfinished business so, whether it's via Lemore (which I'm now fairly certain) or via another device or character, we should be expecting answers.

[ipsuel]

It's a very subtle, obscure reference. I think GRRM figured he could sneak it by unnoticed.

Ashara (and Starfall as a whole) have mysteries purposefully set up. There is unfinished business so, whether it's via Lemore (which I'm now fairly certain) or via another device or character, we should be expecting answers.

Less subtle to those who've read HP -- if only cuz the names in those books were also subtle (at times), but readers learned early on to dissect every single name -- in order to get more info about that character. She used that writing style soooo often it just became silly.

That aside - I do believe we've found something we can agree on... leaning toward Lemore being Ashara and that the Daynes/Starfall is full of mysteries, and we should expect *some* answers, which is great. Cannot wait actually.

My only concern is that it seems, with Lemore, he wanted readers to catch on -- which screams red herring (from GRRM anyway; he is not usually that obvious).

I hope that's not the case; I'm really hoping she's Ashara, It would make perfect sense.

[Mulled Wino]

Eyes come up as the single argument against Ashara = Lemore. Valid argument but weak argument as we are in a magical world. There are face-morphers. Glamour. Who knows what other type of magic. Everything else fits. No guarantee of course till confirmations come from the novels, but everything fits.

I don't see everything else fitting, but an argument that she decided to help with Aegon because she wanted revenge or to get back at Ned and/or Cat might give her motivation.

As it stands now, Aegon (per the text) seems like a weak link for her. Her part of the story is the love story with Ned.

[league of blooDraven]

What if Lemore = ashara and aegon (fAegon) is actually her son. Could be that Varys made up the whole pisswater prince story (which def doesn't add up IMO) and Ashara didn't give birth to a stillborn girl but a silver haired boy? Gasp.. I love it, I'm sold

[corbon]

I don't see everything else fitting,

What do we 'know' about Lemore?

i) has dark hair.

ii) Attractive/sexy/flirtatious/X-factor/ whatever you want to call it

iii) age guess, of a middle aged woman by a man with a bad record of age guessing, of 'past 40' means age probably within the range of 35-55

iv) has golden skin tone

v) likes to swim a lot

vi) had a child in the past

vii) is a westerosi 'lady'

viii) has her own secrets (identity) to hide

ix) knows enough about the religion of the seven to pose as a septa

x) closely connected to fAegon

xi) connected to Jon Connington

xii) seems to be a Targaryen loyalist

what have I missed? There's bound to be something, or several somethings.

What do we 'know' about Ashara Dayne? Among other things...

i) had dark brown hair

ii) was attractive/sexy/flirtatious/X-factor/whatever

iii) age now would be about 36-42, most likely about 38-39

iv) was Dornish

v) lived in a tower by the sea and supposedly committed suicide by diving into the sea and no body was found

vi) had a still-born daughter

vii) was a westerosi Lady

viii) is supposedly dead

ix) judging by what we have seen of Sansa's young noblewomans education, probably knew enough of the religion of the seven to pose as a septa - even more so when you consider was the historical anologous culture's treatment of disgraced young noblewomen...

x) was Aegon's mother's handmaid/companion and sister to Aegon's father's closest friend and most loyal and legendary bodyguard

xi) danced with Jon Connington at Harrenhal and was almost certainly at court at the same time as him over a period of time - while he hung around Rhaegar's circle and she hung around Elia's circle, at the very least.

xii) seems likely to have been a Targaryen loyalist (family and personal connections)

Its a difficult task to find anything about Lemore that we can't fit to Ashara!

Not directly, necessarily, and not always too obviously or conclusively, but so far there is always a matching connection.

Too, we have the story possibilities:

- a potential link to that whole backstory, from which only the reclusive Howland Reed appears to have survived

- a potential link up with Barristan - perhaps even leading to a 'betrayal for love' between him and Dany? Who knows...

- a potential link that covers Vary's story about Aegon all the way to fAegon

- a credible 'proof' of fAegon's claim to be Aegon (even though she may well have never actually met Aegon, and even if she had could easily be fooled by a baby swap). But given westerosi levels of evidentiary sophistication the claim by his mothers Handmaiden/companion and the sister of his father's bodyguard/companion who can easily prove her own identity woud carry a huge amount of weight.

My only concern is that it seems, with Lemore, he wanted readers to catch on -- which screams red herring (from GRRM anyway; he is not usually that obvious).

I hope that's not the case; I'm really hoping she's Ashara, It would make perfect sense.

Actually, if you study the presentation of Ashara and Lemore, when we meet Lemore she is immediately 'ruled out' as being Ashara by several obvious factors. Its only much later in the book, when we get several new tidbits about Ashara, that Lemore comes back into focus as a possibility.

First, Ashara is described to us way back a "tall and fair" which when combined with the known Dayne trait of having Targaryen-like colouring, had pretty much everyone believing that Ashara was a blonde. Lemore has dark hair.

Second, Ashara was this beautiful tragic young noblewoman that was clearly pegged as a red herring for Jon's mother. There was no indication she'd had a child at all and she'd never been married, nor disgraced, nor anything of that nature.

So when we meet a dark haired woman with stretchmarks, and no mention of purple eyes or anything, Ashara doesn;t even slightly come to mind.

Its only (much) later, when Barristan recalls Ashara's dark brown hair, and muses about the still born baby girl she lost and the disgrace (apparently pregnancy or caught in pre-marital sexual conduct) she suffered that our image of Ashara radically changes and Lemore suddenly emerges as a major candidate.

So I don't think GRRM did intend for readers to catch on, at least not in general. He's done a fairly good job of completely obscuring the trail, both with outright inaccuracies implied or even stated outright by characters which appear to rule it out (dark vs fair, childless maiden vs stretch marks, suicide vs very much alive), and with dubiously laid anti-clues (the age guess which is only a guess of something notoriously difficult to get right by someone with an established record of guessing wrong, and the lack of reference to eyes especially haunting or laughing purple eyes) while all the while littering it heavily with more subtle connections and clues.

If you think so, you apparently didn't read the previous threads very carefully.

Sure, but if you rephrase that as "the single, even slightly plausible, argument against" then it was a fair statement. A lot of people have attempted to make a lot of really bad arguments (verb) against it, but that doesn't mean that actual real arguments (noun) against it exist.

[Starspear]

edit

Great post above.

In addition, here's an interesting tidbit about Targaryen complexions. If Daynes fit the same profile, then they may very well tan as well, maybe a nice golden hue.

See link:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/110607-shedding-light-on-targaryen-skin-colorcomplexion/

[Laniki]

Aerys exiled Jon Connington to Essos after the “Battle of the Bells,” which occurred during the year 283. In ADwD, Septa Lemore says that Connington left the Golden Company twelve years prior. Currently, the year is 300. So, Connington left the GC in 288 having been with them for 5 years prior to that. Robert became King of Westeros in 283. So, if Aegon escaped to Essos also in the year 283, he would have been there for 5 years before Connington’s involvement with him. In ADwD, Connington thinks about Lemore in the chapter The Lost Lord as: “He had grown fond of Lemore, but that did not mean he required her approval. Her task had been to instruct the prince in the doctrines of the Faith, and she had done that.” So, per Connington, Lemore’s association with Aegon is simply to educate him in the Faith’s doctrine. Seemingly, Connington doesn’t see Lemore as a parental guardian like one that had been with Aegon prior to Connington’s involvement. Therefore, it appears unlikely that Lemore was responsible for bringing Aegon to Essos acting as a surrogate mother during his infancy.

[nedhed]

Seemingly, Connington doesn’t see Lemore as a parental guardian like one that had been with Aegon prior to Connington’s involvement.

Good point

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Aerys exiled Jon Connington to Essos after the “Battle of the Bells,” which occurred during the year 283. In ADwD, Septa Lemore says that Connington left the Golden Company twelve years prior. Currently, the year is 300. So, Connington left the GC in 288 having been with them for 5 years prior to that. Robert became King of Westeros in 283. So, if Aegon escaped to Essos also in the year 283, he would have been there for 5 years before Connington’s involvement with him. In ADwD, Connington thinks about Lemore in the chapter The Lost Lord as: “He had grown fond of Lemore, but that did not mean he required her approval. Her task had been to instruct the prince in the doctrines of the Faith, and she had done that.” So, per Connington, Lemore’s association with Aegon is simply to educate him in the Faith’s doctrine. Seemingly, Connington doesn’t see Lemore as a parental guardian like one that had been with Aegon prior to Connington’s involvement. Therefore, it appears unlikely that Lemore was responsible for bringing Aegon to Essos acting as a surrogate mother during his infancy.

Someone surely had to take care of Aegon when he was a baby or an infant, even after Connington (I don't see him like the kind of man who would change their diapers, nor that he knows how to do that) but there is no indication that it was Lemore.

Let's say it's lemore, for a moment. She took care of Aegon when he was a baby, later, a child of six. Then she disappeared when Aegon was given to JC and reappeared to say "I'm just a septa"? Wouldn't Aegon recognise her? Say something like "oh, is Lemore!"? She could have been her wet nurse, though, and later, called by Varys to teach him about the faith.