Septa Lemore identity (and why it matters) v.2

[Chebyshov]

Are we assuming Mellario would be acting completely independently (without Doran's knowledge)? Because otherwise he'd know of Aegon. I guess if she's pissed enough that makes sense, but then why would she be so into helping Aegon when if not for her Dornish ties, she'd have no reason to support him otherwise?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

There were some very interesting opinions about the Doran-Lemore/Mellario here.

edit:

I had some thoughts on Mellario as Lemore, and it seemed a good connection to my mind. Then I forgot to post them and now I don't remember them :(

You might find this interestng. :)

Shameless self promotion :D

[Ygrain]

Their eyes met, so Theon could see the face. We get no information on jaw, hair, nose, age. We get nothing. Certainly Theon noticed something. He knew it was a man and not a woman. Why? The jaw? The voice? The build? What? GRRM is the one who kept us in the dark.

And I'm not sure how recognition is relevant. Tyrion doesn't recognize Lemore when they first meet yet describes much about her.

This is what I'm saying: POVs do not have to contain all of the information a character notices. This applies even if the information is important.

I'm not certain what your position is. That POVs do not have to contain all of the information a character notices as long as there is enough information for the reader to puzzle it out? (as with Bran) And if there is no recognition, the details can also not be mentioned? (as with Theon)

That depends whether the information is plot-relevant, and whether the PoV in question can figure out what is going on - see e.g. Arya overhearing Varys talking to Illyrio. She has no clue, we do. It is an important buildup for the reveal that Varys and Illyrio are in cahoots, which has to be included so that the reveal doesn't come out of the blue.

And, sorry but if you briefly meet someone's eyes, in low visibility, you really don't get that many details. Gender, size, prominent dark or light colouring, and that's it. Perhaps the presence or absence of beard, which is not really crucial for identification, unless it is somehow specific. For example. while Pycelle still had his beautiful white beard, he would have been recognicable due to it, so if someone saw a hooded figure with this awesome white beard, they, or at least the readers, would immediately suspect that the figure was Pycelle. Seeing the figure face to face but failing to mention the beard would be misleading the reader.

[HexMachina]

Are we assuming Mellario would be acting completely independently (without Doran's knowledge)? Because otherwise he'd know of Aegon. I guess if she's pissed enough that makes sense, but then why would she be so into helping Aegon when if not for her Dornish ties, she'd have no reason to support him otherwise?

Personally I would say no, though I think the popular Mellario/Lemore theory has her and Doran in it together. But I just posted in JQC's thread :)

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

That depends whether the information is plot-relevant, and whether the PoV in question can figure out what is going on - see e.g. Arya overhearing Varys talking to Illyrio. She has no clue, we do. It is an important buildup for the reveal that Varys and Illyrio are in cahoots, which has to be included so that the reveal doesn't come out of the blue.

And, sorry but if you briefly meet someone's eyes, in low visibility, you really don't get that many details. Gender, size, prominent dark or light colouring, and that's it. Perhaps the presence or absence of beard, which is not really crucial for identification, unless it is somehow specific. For example. while Pycelle still had his beautiful white beard, he would have been recognicable due to it, so if someone saw a hooded figure with this awesome white beard, they, or at least the readers, would immediately suspect that the figure was Pycelle. Seeing the figure face to face but failing to mention the beard would be misleading the reader.

Misleading the reader is the whole point. This is a story of twists and reveals.

Take The Watcher chapter, Hotah notices Balon eating a spicy stew and makes note of Balon's sweat. Then, later, Hotah says Balon never touched the stew and becomes suspicious of the sweat. To the reader, Balon is now sweating without good reason and is therefore guilty. However, a careful re-reading shows that Hotah contradicts himself and misremembers.

Hotah's thoughts, though, play no role in the plot. No one else mentions it or notices the sweat or the stew. And Hotah doesn't bring it up. Hotah's POV and insights on stew was soley there to mislead the reader.

Let me put emphasis on that: GRRM gave a physical description that purposely misled the reader.

If GRRM is willing to give a physical description to mislead, I would think he would be willing to omit a physical description to mislead.

So, a Tyrion POV that doesn't mention purple eyes with a Dornish accent (Ashara), doesn't mention blonde pubes with a Marcher accent (Tyene's mom) or a Norvoshi accent (Mellario) doesn't tell me anything.

GRRM misleads and omits, therefore, Lemore could be Ashara, Tyene's mom, Mellario or, simply Lemore.

[corbon]

I think the text implies Lemore was brought in later than Connington.

There is no such implication.

[league of blooDraven]

I tend to agree with Ygrain here...it wouldn't be fitting of GRRM's style if SL=AD.

The only thing that gives me pause is this kind of spoilery 2002 synopsis of ASOIAF#4, back when there was still going to be a time jump. The part that stands out is "Danerys trains her growing dragons and learns from Barristan the secrets of her father, her brother Rhaegar, and other matters that will culminate at Starfell." Assuming Starfell = Starfall, I can't help but think the Daynes will have an important part to play. However, this doesn't necessarily mean anything about Aegon or Ashara.

If I had to guess, I'd say SL =/= AD, but just figured I'd point that out.

If that synopsis is accurate and based on info from GRRM... that's like.. A really big deal. It means Starfall will play prominently in Dany's arc. So if Ashara isn't alive to contribute and reveal anything (like most ppl here believe) what could that mean?

What could happen at Starfall about Dany that wouldn't have to do with Ashara? I got nothing...

All I can think of is that maybe fAegon is really a dayne/part dayne somehow? And the original plan was for Dany to learn this in Feast and then fight him in Dance? It would make the "Dance" title fit better I think if this happened, but idk how fAegon could be part Dayne.... Any ideas?

[Ygrain]

If that synopsis is accurate and based on info from GRRM... that's like.. A really big deal. It means Starfall will play prominently in Dany's arc. So if Ashara isn't alive to contribute and reveal anything (like most ppl here believe) what could that mean?

What could happen at Starfall about Dany that wouldn't have to do with Ashara? I got nothing...

All I can think of is that maybe fAegon is really a dayne/part dayne somehow? And the original plan was for Dany to learn this in Feast and then fight him in Dance? It would make the "Dance" title fit better I think if this happened, but idk how fAegon could be part Dayne.... Any ideas?

Dawn.

Wylla.

[espresso]

Crackpot: Septa Lemore is Wenda the White Fawn who was secretly carried off to KL by Arthur Dayne, who is the real father of young Griff. ;)

[Ygrain]

Crackpot: Septa Lemore is Wenda the White Fawn who was secretly carried off to KL by Arthur Dayne, who is the real father of young Griff. ;)

Not so much crackpot, at least a part of it: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/111215-wenda-the-white-fawn-septa-lemore-and-the-toynes/

[espresso]

Wow, there is a theory on that! I posted on a sudden thought after just rereading Jaime's chapters in Feast. Didn't think it thru, but you make it sound convincing. With lemore=ashara established with so much hints, I thought other possibilities could be less likely. But I personally prefer lemore to be anyone other than Ashara. Then again, I do like the Vertigo reference. Confused.

[Ygrain]

Wow, there is a theory on that! I posted on a sudden thought after just rereading Jaime's chapters in Feast. Didn't think it thru, but you make it sound convincing. With lemore=ashara established with so much hints, I thought other possibilities could be less likely. But I personally prefer lemore to be anyone other than Ashara. Then again, I do like the Vertigo reference. Confused.

Thanks! The credits really go to Fire Eater, but as I stated in the thread, even if Wenda is not Lemore, the Kingswood brotherhood and the Toynes seem to be in the story for a purpose.

And yes, I would also prefer Lemore not be Ashara, for the sole reason of having someone dead actually stay dead :D

The Vertigo reference... I find it rather intriguing, but I'm not particularly happy about it, either. While there are certainly many literary and historical influences in GRRM's work, this name play seems almost blunt and I'm not sure if he would go for such a trick. Combined with all the other aspects of writing which I find unsatisfactory if Lemore = Ashara, I tend to think that it is not her, but I wouldn't bet on it.

[league of blooDraven]

Dawn.

Wylla.

Dawn.. Maybe. But what would Dany need a sword (albeit a really good sword) for? She has dragons and has never really needed/shown an interest in traditional weapons.

I'm assuming you mean Wylla as a possible reveal of R+L=J. I could buy that.. Like as in, "hey Dany you actually have a nephew who is the son of Rhaegar and it isn't this Blackfyre kid you've been fighting". She then goes to the wall to find Jon. But that doesn't really mean Ashara =\= Lemore. If anything maybe Ashara/Lemore brings fAegon to Starfall to get the sword and Dany shows up to get to the truth of the matter and fAegon is revealed as false and Wylla reveals Jon's existence.

[Aemond's Eye]

She gave birth to Trystane who is 13 years old. I think she may join the party a few years after JonCon. This makes fAegon old enough the understand the mysteries of the Faith as Varys proclaimed.

Surely if Mellario would be willing to leave her children and pose as Septa Lemore she would also have consented to Arianne being sent to the free cities to meet with Viserys? I can't remember where I read it, but I'm sure I read that one potential reason for Arianne never meeting her (secret) betrothed as a youngster was her mother not wanting a second child to sent away.

It's possible that Doran was just hedging his bets, but he wouldn't have needed a marriage pact in that case. It's not like a young adult Viserys would have turned down a marriage with Dorne; the pact would only be required if it was genuine.

[Mithras]

Surely if Mellario would be willing to leave her children and pose as Septa Lemore she would also have consented to Arianne being sent to the free cities to meet with Viserys? I can't remember where I read it, but I'm sure I read that one potential reason for Arianne never meeting her (secret) betrothed as a youngster was her mother not wanting a second child to sent away.

It's possible that Doran was just hedging his bets, but he wouldn't have needed a marriage pact in that case. It's not like a young adult Viserys would have turned down a marriage with Dorne; the pact would only be required if it was genuine.

True but she is officially in Norvos now, well away from her children for years. Perhaps this is the reason why Mellario herself goes and raises the betrothed of her daughter instead of Arianne going and meeting him.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

True but she is officially in Norvos now, well away from her children for years. Perhaps this is the reason why Mellario herself goes and raises the betrothed of her daughter instead of Arianne going and meeting him.

Doran's story about Mellario leaving makes little sense. She threatens suicide if she is away from more than 2 of 3 of her children. Then she just abandons all three.

Essentially, if Doran's story has and shread of truth about Mellario's feelings, we need a really, really good reason for Mellario being away from Dorne.

Of course, his story about Mellario's feelings about her children could be just a whole bunch of bull.

[corbon]

Doran's story about Mellario leaving makes little sense. She threatens suicide if she is away from more than 2 of 3 of her children. Then she just abandons all three.

Essentially, if Doran's story has and shread of truth about Mellario's feelings, we need a really, really good reason for Mellario being away from Dorne.

Of course, his story about Mellario's feelings about her children could be just a whole bunch of bull.

Doran's story about Mellario is all about agency, not love. Mellario left because there was nothing left for her in Dorne. She'd fallen out of love with Doran, didn't like the customs/food/people etc, and Doran had just definitively proved to her that she had no agency in her kids' futures. She couldn't even keep them around.

So she left.

It makes perfect sense, so long as you don't misread it utterly.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Doran's story about Mellario is all about agency, not love. Mellario left because there was nothing left for her in Dorne. She'd fallen out of love with Doran, didn't like the customs/food/people etc, and Doran had just definitively proved to her that she had no agency in her kids' futures. She couldn't even keep them around.

So she left.

It makes perfect sense, so long as you don't misread it utterly.

Well, that doesn't really make sense either as Andrey Dalt was sent to ward with Mellario. So, Mellario still has some sort of relationship with Doran and is somewhat complicit with his plans.

[corbon]

Well, that doesn't really make sense either as Andrey Dalt was sent to ward with Mellario. So, Mellario still has some sort of relationship with Doran and is somewhat complicit with his plans.

You are still inventing stuff that isn't there to make it all fail. It makes perfect sense.

There is no massive falling out between the two of them, just a disagreement that she lost, and in the losing was shown how little control over her life she had. So with nothing left to keep her there, she left. They are still technically married, so she still technically carries some rank, and although GRRM said she has some bitterness over having to leave her children behind, it was still her choice, so its obvious that they remain on relatively amicable terms.

People make far too much of the bitterness aspect. There's no indication that she's particularly anti-Doran. The situation is what it is, and its not really his fault. Its not fair he gets to stay and she gets to leave, but thats not his fault either. She's chosen to go back to a comfortable life in Norvos and doesn't have a whole lot to complain about really.

She's not part of his deep plans or anything, nor probably complicit to anything. She's just a convenient old contact thats handy to park Dralt out of the way with. No skin off her nose.

It wasn't a good marriage. They married because of an attraction to something new and exotic. Sometimes, attraction happens when you least expect it. He was a prince of a distant country, and she was a woman full of life, who was very appealing, who came from a very different culture. When she comes to Dorne, she finds that there are customs that are different from those of Norvos, especially regarding the fostering away of children to others.

This wasn't a political marriage, nor a magical one, it was simply an example of human nature. Sometimes relationships start on a good foot: you become acquainted, there's a great sexual attraction, you establish a relationship, you marry... and then in four or five years you realize that you don't really have anything in common, that at best you've made a mistake and are in a situation that doesn't have any easy solution in a society such as that of the Seven Kingdoms, where divorce simply isn't common. This is an example that it's not only marriages of convenience that fail, but even the marriages for love can fail.

Sometimes the marriages of convenience in the Seven Kingdoms come out well and those that are for love don't. Sometimes a couple loves one another, and then at some point they don't. There are marriages that also develop out of nothing more than lust (laughs). There's no guarantee that things will go well and the consequence of this is that disappointments develop and you end up estranged, each person going their own way. There's some bitterness from Mellario about this, because as Prince of Dorne, Doran has been able to stay with his children and she has had to leave them.

Basically what you have here is a relatively amicable unofficial divorce. Each has gone their own way. There's some bitterness, but not enough to make them enemies or anything. She's still legally his wife and so its a perfect solution to send Dralt there. Its completely out of the way, an exile without too much hardship, officially a high level Martell (by marriage, but still) there to keep Dralt in line, but one with no real interest in Dorne or its machinations that Dralt has been involved in.

[corbon]

Some further discussion on Mellario.

The way I see it, she's basically a big drama queen type.

The met and married while Doran was basically on holiday. She's younger than him, and he was the travelling prince.
- Lady Mellario first met her future husband, Prince Doran in the city of Norvos, when he travelled the Free Cities. She returned with Doran to Dorne, as his wife,

- “I remember,” echoed Areo Hotah in his deep voice. “The bears danced and the bells rang, and the prince wore red and gold and orange. My lady asked me who it was who shone so bright.”

- They married because of an attraction to something new and exotic. Sometimes, attraction happens when you least expect it. He was a prince of a distant country, and she was a woman full of life, who was very appealing, who came from a very different culture.

They lasted for a few years and had three kids. Arrianne remembers them fighting when Quentyn was sent away.
- Quentyn had been very young when he was sent to Yronwood; too young, according to their mother. Norvoshi did not foster out their children, and Lady Mellario had never forgiven Prince Doran for taking her son away from her. “I like it no more than you do,” Arianne had overheard her father say, “but there is a blood debt, and Quentyn is the only coin Lord Ormond will accept.”

“Coin?” her mother had screamed. “He is your son. What sort of father uses his own flesh and blood to pay his debts?”

“The princely sort,” Doran Martell had answered.

Basically what you have is an alluring exotic, hot tempered, full of life, beauty who won the bright and sparkly visiting prince in a whirlwind romance (they are married by the time he returns home). She saw a bright and shiny thing and wanted it. So did he.

But that passion died, and the differences in customs and necessity of politics meant she left. You see it in the fight. She's screaming and using emotive arguments, he's calm, reasoned, necessitative logic, ignoring feelings. Oil and water. Think the hot latino (for us staid caucasian types that fit Doran's mould better) thats all passion and fire, and not much else (at least in common).

So basically she leaves. There is nothing to keep her there any more.

Now that hot latino. There's basically two stereotypes. The one that hates with a fiery passion forever, using anything and everything in her power for destruction, visiting witchdoctors and voodoo men and laying curses etc etc etc. And the other one who is basically perfectly happy once the fight is done and the actions taken and the passion gone.

Mellario is that second one. Now that she's gone, she'll be happy enough in Norvos in her own world, with her own life. She'll be amicable enough to Doran from afar and is still officially his wife. Its the perfect situation for Drey's exile.

Why everyone seems to insist that she's the other stereotype, even though that conflicts with Doran sending Drey to her, I have no idea.

Apologies for the general stereotyping. People are more complex than just stereotypes, but stereotypes do provide useful illustrations, especially for extremely bit-part characters.