Parwan Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 There are a large number of threads, wikis, etc. that discuss Dany’s sack of Astapor. A major problem arises: Dany didn’t sack Astapor. I’ve participated in debates on the matter. I foresee the possibility that I will do so again. This is particularly true because I am participating in a Dany re-read. Thus, I thought it a good idea to start this thread. It may come to a quick end, because it is concerned with a technical matter and may not draw much interest. Some might find it trivial, but I disagree. One should always seek to define terms well and state matters clearly. Here I am concerned with the term “sack” and the fact that it can’t be properly applied to the actions of Dany’s forces in Astapor. This is the way I put things in another thread: "There is no proof that Dany sacked Astapor. Actually, I'll make the assertion stronger. There isn't any evidence that Dany sacked Astapor. Such evidence as exists is all on the other side. Sacking is the looting or plundering of a conquered city. I don't see any indication whatsoever that Dany's forces did any "looting" or "plundering" worthy of the terms. Quite the contrary. The slaves who followed her to Yunkai remained quite poor. They grabbed a few weapons from their former masters' armories. That's the size of it." Of course, this says very little about Dany’s overall capacity to rule. It says nothing about torture or crucifixion. Those matters have been discussed extensively and will, no doubt, be discussed still more. They shouldn’t be discussed on this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bittersteel Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 If the slaves were property perhaps the masters in other cities saw her as 'looting' them. She certainly didn't pay for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 We have Sack of King's Landing... I don't recall much of plundering happening there as killing. So, I honestly don't see how we can say that that wasn't sack. We can squabble about terminology but what she did, ironically isn't that different from what Tywin did to Aerys. And she did take something from Astapori. If we are not talking about slaves, let we talk about that dragon she sold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Bastard Snow Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 We have Sack of King's Landing... I don't recall much of plundering happening there as killing. So, I honestly don't see how we can say that that wasn't sack. We can squabble about terminology but what she did, ironically isn't that different from what Tywin did to Aerys. And she did take something from Astapori. If we are not talking about slaves, let we talk about that dragon she sold. Yea you dont need to take something from a place to sack it.Its really just splitting hairs to say she didnt when she attacked the city and more then likely there was mass looting as in Meereen there was mass looting rape and murder.The Unsullied might not have taken part in it but the Freepeople of Astapor certainly did and at that point in time Dany was in charge of them so its on her head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 We have Sack of King's Landing... I don't recall much of plundering happening there as killing. So, I honestly don't see how we can say that that wasn't sack. We can squabble about terminology but what she did, ironically isn't that different from what Tywin did to Aerys. And she did take something from Astapori. If we are not talking about slaves, let we talk about that dragon she sold.Jorah's recollection of the sack of KL sounded like pretty much everything bad that could happen, did happen. Murder of women and children, rape, looting, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGimletEye Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 Yeah, well, it doesn't really matter if somebody takes your crap if your dead, particularly after they have killed you. Maybe your right technically speaking. I think looting the place was hardly the most disturbing thing with regard to Astapor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 I think looting the place was hardly the most disturbing thing with regard to Astapor.Your right, that would be the making of the Unsullied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 Jorah's recollection of the sack of KL sounded like pretty much everything bad that could happen, did happen. Murder of women and children, rape, looting, etc. We know that it was living hell, but there were no looting mentioned in Jorah's recollection, IIRC, only killings, rape etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 We know that it was living hell, but there were no looting mentioned in Jorah's recollection, IIRC, only killings, rape etc...If those things were going on I can't imagine that there wasn't looting as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Bastard Snow Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 We know that it was living hell, but there were no looting mentioned in Jorah's recollection, IIRC, only killings, rape etc... I dont think they had much time to loot to be honest as Ned showed up rather quickly so more then likely they had a few hours of rape and murder and before they could make off with loot the Starks showed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 If those things were going on I can't imagine that there wasn't looting as well. Well, same logic works here. I doubt that Daenerys left Astapor intact. Come on, people... We can question whether the either of conquests can be called sack, but I see no real difference in Sack of KL and Sack of Astapor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 It is my understanding of things that the OP is correct, that there was no sack of Astapor in the traditional sense. I think her unsullied kept order. Tywin on the other hand did sack Kings Landing, it is talked about multiple times by people saying the sack is still remembered, the looting and raping etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bittersteel Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 It is my understanding of things that the OP is correct, that there was no sack of Astapor in the traditional sense. I think her unsullied kept order. Tywin on the other hand did sack Kings Landing, it is talked about multiple times by people saying the sack is still remembered, the looting and raping etc etc. The unsullied she stole you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Bastard Snow Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 It is my understanding of things that the OP is correct, that there was no sack of Astapor in the traditional sense. I think her unsullied kept order. Tywin on the other hand did sack Kings Landing, it is talked about multiple times by people saying the sack is still remembered, the looting and raping etc etc. No we have evidence that the Unsullied do not actually keep order.When Dany rolled into Meereen she didnt punish any of the freemen for the massive amount of rapes and murders and looting that took place.The Unsullied simply didnt take part in any of those acts.Dany has never been shown to provide any order and stability to any region she takes over.So while the Unsullied dont take part in any rapes and lootings and such others under her command do without any form of punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebra of KotOR Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 The slaves she freed you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bittersteel Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 The slaves she freed you mean? In your eyes maybe, to the Ghiscari culture in slavers Bay it was definitely stealing because they consider them property and so we get to the crux of this thread. The masters and others will see this as a sack. Dany and her supporters will see it as a liberation. Depends on your perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 The slaves she freed you mean? You mean she bought? For I do remember she actually gave something aka she paid for those Unsullied. Plus, we know that she has ordered generic murder of everyone older than 12 (was it 12, or 13) who was wearing the whip. Something entire class of people was wearing. Make no mistake, I am all for her being Lincoln, but the fact is that she crashed Astapor and later she left it to God knows whom. The results, as Quentyn told us, is the living hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 The unsullied she stole you mean? The slaves she freed you mean? You mean she bought? Hodor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parwan Posted May 23, 2014 Author Share Posted May 23, 2014 If the slaves were property perhaps the masters in other cities saw her as 'looting' them. She certainly didn't pay for them. The masters would quite possibly see it that way. The slaves would disagree. I wish to express my disagreement with the masters and my strong agreement with the slaves. We have Sack of King's Landing... I don't recall much of plundering happening there as killing. So, I honestly don't see how we can say that that wasn't sack. We can squabble about terminology but what she did, ironically isn't that different from what Tywin did to Aerys. And she did take something from Astapori. If we are not talking about slaves, let we talk about that dragon she sold. I find it exceedingly unlikely that the lion soldiers refrained from plunder. I find it pretty close to certain that the Unsullied did refrain from this. I do not agree that Dany stole the dragon. Even if I did, a single theft, even a large one, is not a sacking. If there was no looting of KL, and if Jorah still called it a sack, then Jorah was wrong. Yea you dont need to take something from a place to sack it.Its really just splitting hairs to say she didnt when she attacked the city and more then likely there was mass looting as in Meereen there was mass looting rape and murder.The Unsullied might not have taken part in it but the Freepeople of Astapor certainly did and at that point in time Dany was in charge of them so its on her head. It is not more than likely. It is quite unlikely. As I pointed out in the OP, the slaves who followed Dany were quite poor. Furthermore, Dany and the Unsullied would have had control of things. One of Jorah's main arguments for acquiring an Unsullied army is that the will not loot unless told to do so. Yeah, well, it doesn't really matter if somebody takes your crap if your dead, particularly after they have killed you. Maybe your right technically speaking. I think looting the place was hardly the most disturbing thing with regard to Astapor. As I said, the point I'm making here is technical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bittersteel Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 The masters would quite possibly see it that way. The slaves would disagree. I wish to express my disagreement with the masters and my strong agreement with the slaves. I find it exceedingly unlikely that the lion soldiers refrained from plunder. I find it pretty close to certain that the Unsullied did refrain from this. I don not agree that Dany stole the dragon. Even if I did, a single theft, even a large one, is not a sacking. If there was no looting of KL, and if Jorah still called it a sack, then Jorah was wrong. It is not more than likely. It is quite unlikely. As I pointed out in the OP, the slaves who followed Dany were quite poor. Furthermore, Dany and the Unsullied would have had control of things. One of Jorah's main arguments for acquiring an Unsullied army is that the will not loot unless told to do so. As I said, the point I'm making here is technical. No offense but whether you disagree or not is irrelevant in terms of what it's called in world. If the masters refer to it as a sack because of their culture (and it makes sense that they would) what you think doesn't matter. To them it would be sack and you wouldn't be able to convince them otherwise. As I said earlier this is all perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.