Spouses last name's inconsistency

[The Bittersteel]

Not a catchy thread title but to the point I hope. Why do some women retain their last name after they are married and others don't?

Obviously most do change, here are some notable examples:

Catelyn Stark

Lysa Arryn

Olenna Tyrell

Barbery Dustin

Those who to my knowledge are not referred by their spouses name:

Elia Martell

Sansa Stark

Cersei Lannister

In some cases it may be due to the mothers dynasty being used for the children, as with Maege Mormont or Doran's mother but that isn't the case for Elia or Cersei. Is there any other explanation for this?

[Mladen]

Here is SSM on the matter

You ask about names. Several different questions here. Maege Mormont is called Mormont because no one knows her husband's name, or even if she has one. There is all the talk that she beds with a bear. She prefers to keep her own counsel. Most of the ladies of Westeros do change their names when they wed, although usage varies. If the wife's family is significantly higher born than the husband's, she may use his name little, if at all. The Dornish have their own customs. The full surname of the ruling house of Dorne is Nymeros Martell, and the ruling pricesses keep that in its female form. They do not take the name of their consorts.

Bastard names are given only to bastards with at least one parent of high birth. So the bastard child of two peasants would have no surname at all.

Thus a bastard name like "Snow" or "Rivers" is simultaneously a stigma and a mark of distinction. The whole thing with bastard names is custom, not law.

The highborn parent can bestow the usual name, a new one of his/her own devising, or none at all. Most legitimate sons of bastards keep the bastard name, but there are cases where a later generation fiddles with it to remove the taint. There's one such case that you will meet in the next book, a minor character descended from a Waters (a bastard name along the shores of Blackwater Bay) whose great grandfather changed the name to Longwaters for just that reason.

Maester Aemon is doubly sworn, to both Citadel and Night's Watch. That is true of the maesters at Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower as well.

So, it is not inconsistency as much as it it simply varies from case to case. So, there is no need or textual proof to address Cersei, Sansa or Elia as Cersei Baratheon, Sansa Lannister and Elia Targaryen simply because they are married. We know that some women simply don't take their husbands last name and Cersei, Sansa and Elia are most prominent examples.

[Ser Ious Woodmont]

To add: Namin Elia 'Martell" strengthens her bond with Dorne, Oberyn's and Doran's obsession's with revenge.

Same for Cersei Lannister, emphasizing her unmistakinging link with that family.

[jons nissa]

i would say that there is the name the married women are referred to by characters in the books and the names they are called by readers. the martells and mormonts follow their own custom of keeping their family name and not taking their husband's name but it does seem as though the others take their husband's name. having said that, are any of the characters called lady "surname"? they seem to be called lady "given name" so it could be more about how they think of themselves in their thought or a means for the readers to understand exactly who they are. cersei is unique since she worked very hard to make the lannister presence felt at court, going so far as to have red and gold displayed prominently.

[Reek Havoc]

I could be way off, but I was under the impression that it's not so much that they didn't change their name, but that the people of Westeros simply still think of these characters as more closely associated with their House than simply the wife of the man that they married. For instance, Sansa may have taken the name Lannister, but to most, she's still recognized as the daughter of Ned Stark, and therefore is still called Sansa Stark. Cersei's legal name could be Baratheon, but because of the House that she came from, she's not simply regarded as King Robert's queen... her name holds a good amount of weight regardless of who she marries.

Or, of course, it could just be GRRM's way of reminding the reader where that character's allegiance lies or (like in Elia's case) who gives that particular character their support.

[Maester Pedant]

Some change, some don't. Some are sometimes known by their maiden name, sometimes by their married name. There are no strict rules. Usage varies, and depends, among other things, on what you want to emphasize: the connection with the father or the husband.

[Fanless Mace]

Cersei never liked being a Baeatheon, and few of Robert's supporters liked the Lannisters. So she might be a special case.

I think too that a married woman still always retains her maiden name identity...so Cat Stark may be thought of as Cat who is one of the Tullys when convenient for the conversation. Depends where your politics lie.

Sansa is called Stark by Cersei because she can't stand the idea of calling her a Lannister. She is certainly Sansa Lannister by marriage now.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I think too that a married woman still always retains her maiden name identity...so Cat Stark may be thought of as Cat who is one of the Tullys when convenient for the conversation. Depends where your politics lie.

Not may, is. In the Riverlands, she is Lady Catelyn Tully. In the North, she is Lady Catelyn Stark. In the rest of Westeros, it depends. Mostly Stark though.

[Mladen]

Sansa is called Stark by Cersei because she can't stand the idea of calling her a Lannister. She is certainly Sansa Lannister by marriage now.

And what's the excuse for any other character in the books who doesn't see Sansa as Lannister and continuously refer to her as Sansa Stark?

[Ser Greg of House House]

With Queens it's a good way to show-off your family status. Cat had no use to keep the Tully, since no one would really care that she's Lady in the North, it's no higher than being overlords of the Riverlands.

[jons nissa]

And what's the excuse for any other character in the books who doesn't see Sansa as Lannister and continuously refer to her as Sansa Stark?

by who?

[Mladen]

by who?

People in Riverlands whom Brienne meets. I recall her being asked whether she looks for Sansa Stark. She is also generally known by that name by entire population. You are free to give me one example where "Sansa Lannister" is written in the books, beside Stannis' hypocritical POV which is said only as an insult. Check the books, search them for Sansa Lannister, and tell me what you have found.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

Me thinks when a woman in westeros marries into a noble family, if that house is new in comparison , wife keeps her father's name. ::)

[jons nissa]

People in Riverlands whom Brienne meets. I recall her being asked whether she looks for Sansa Stark. She is also generally known by that name by entire population. You are free to give me one example where "Sansa Lannister" is written in the books, beside Stannis' hypocritical POV which is said only as an insult. Check the books, search them for Sansa Lannister, and tell me what you have found.

i see them referring to sansa or the stark girl(s) or lady sansa. in fact, iirc, brienne doesn't name the girl she's looking for. as for sansa lannister, as my post states, no one is called by their full name (first and last name together), as far as i can remember.

[Mladen]

i see them referring to sansa or the stark girl(s) or lady sansa. in fact, iirc, brienne doesn't name the girl she's looking for. as for sansa lannister, as my post states, no one is called by their full name (first and last name together), as far as i can remember.

Here is how many times Sansa has been called Sansa Stark post her wedding with Tyrion.

[Khal BlackfyreO]

It seems to me that in Sansa's case many common folk and others still refer to her as Stark due to her incredibly specific situation. Her father was killed by her fiancée who was part Lannister, and then she was sloughed off by said fiancée and pushed into an obviously forced marriage with the member of the Lannister line with the least prestige possible, publicly considered at best a joke and at worst a 'demon monkey' Even objective bystanders to the Stark-Lannister conflict seem to recognize that Sansa got royally shafted by the Lannisters when her only crime was being a Stark. So keeping her own surname is kind of a given in this case as far as public opinion goes.

[jons nissa]

Here is how many times Sansa has been called Sansa Stark post her wedding with Tyrion.

wow! two threads discussing the same thing at the same time. and there's a post very similar to mine stating they are just referred to as lady ____ and lord _____. thanks for the link. i was doing some scanning as well and did find that characters, both male and female, tend to be referred to by the full name, first and last, in narrative, or when the reader is in the head of a character. i also found that brienne does call sansa by her full name once or twice and also refers to lysa as lysa tully when she learns of her death.

again, it syncs up with my theory that the maiden name is used for clarity but there may definitely be more to it. in fact, i'm starting to wonder now if the only married woman who uses her married name more often than not might be catelyn as an attempt by the author to connect her more with the starks than the tullys but i'll need to look at more of the books to be sure.

[Mladen]

wow! two threads discussing the same thing at the same time. and there's a post very similar to mine stating they are just referred to as lady ____ and lord _____. thanks for the link. i was doing some scanning as well and did find that characters, both male and female, tend to be referred to by the full name, first and last, in narrative, or when the reader is in the head of a character. i also found that brienne does call sansa by her full name once or twice and also refers to lysa as lysa tully when she learns of her death.

again, it syncs up with my theory that the maiden name is used for clarity but there may definitely be more to it. in fact, i'm starting to wonder now if the only married woman who uses her married name more often than not might be catelyn as an attempt by the author to connect her more with the starks than the tullys but i'll need to look at more of the books to be sure.

Do you think I will allow "Sansa Lannister" nonsense anywhere at the boards :). It;s a tough, but satisfying job...

The point is that Brienne isn't the only one who calls her Sansa Stark. Mace Tyrell, Loras, Tyrion, Cersei, Tywin, Jaime, common folk etc... I do believe that this insistence is deliberate and that Martin knew how taken back readers would be at "Lady Lannister" remark. It is something that simply is out of the order, an exception that proves the rule. There is narrative purpose for Sansa being constantly referred as Sansa Stark, and never as Sansa Lannister. Just like in the case of Cersei and Elia.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Sansa's marriage was never consummated. Maybe people only change the name after a child is born? Just guessing...

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Elia is called, usually, (Princess) Elia (of Dorne) (both the prefix and the suffix are optional and used seemingly at random). She's "Elia Martell" only twice in the books, once in AGOT and once in ASOS, at the beginning of the Duel. She's never Elia Targaryen, though. Mayhaps wives from lesser houses weren't considered worthy of that precious name. Marrying outside one's immediate family had to be icky enough, but giving your wife your family name might generate some sort of the uncanny valley effect.