Anyone else hoping that R+L=/= J?

[WeaselPie]

We know Lyanna disappeared with Rhaegar, Jon resembles Arya who resembles Lyanna, Lyanna died in a bed of blood, Kingsguard members refused to leave Lyanna even after the deaths of Aerys and Rhaegar, there is a blue rose on a wall of ice in the HotU prophecies, Ned promised Lyanna something, Ned does not fit the personality to sire a bastard, Brandon was long dead during the conception of Jon, etc, etc.

We don't know the circumstances of her disappearance. R+L people like to think R wanted to impregnate and marry her - no proof, fanfic.

Jon resembles Arya who resembles Lyanna. Lynesse Hightower resembles Dany who resembles other Targs. So? - no proof

Lyanna was in a bed of blood in Ned's fever dream - GRRM points this out, not me. Theon dreams of her in a white dress spattered with gore. Quite different images - no proof

KG put up a fight at ToJ - no proof. Fever dream. No proof Lyanna was there. No proof others were not there. No proof about the sequence of events.

Blue rose on the Wall - HOTU. Yeah everyone loves to think this means Jon and it's canon, but everyone hates to think Rhaegar, in the same sequence of visions, was correct. No proof.

Ned broke multiple "promises"

I never said Brandon or Ned was Jon's father.

[Game Of Thrones]

Then who was Jon's father? Stannis?

[Game Of Thrones]

1. If the KG did not put up a fight, how did they die? And how did Lord Dustin and the other Northmen die?

2. Rhaegar is confirmed dead, he's not Mance.

3. Ned's fever dream is obviously based on reality.

[WeaselPie]

Then who was Jon's father? Stannis?

That's not the topic. The topic is R+L=J (or not), and there is not a single cohesive proof anyone can give while fitting in all the pieces of the puzzle that R+L=J.

So, re: the OP, it's not that I hope R+L doesn't equal J, it's that I find it HIGHly unlikely.

Prince kidnaps beautiful noble girl to secretly marry her and impregnate her to produce a secret King to fulfill a prophecy a couple of decades in the future. Really? GRRM, I'm sure, read wayy more novels with that theme than I have.

[J. Stargaryen]

1. If the KG did not put up a fight, how did they die? And how did Lord Dustin and the other Northmen die?

2. Rhaegar is confirmed dead, he's not Mance.

3. Ned's fever dream is obviously based on reality.

The thing you have to understand about WP, is that she's upset that her own theory R+L=/=J theory was so easily refuted. So, rather than regroup and try to understand the story better, she's resorted to lashing out at the R+L=J theory.

Honestly, are you going to take anyone seriously who states that Rhaegar has nothing to do with blue roses? (Which, btw, I see she's edited in her post. Don't worry WP, I saved it for you when I quoted you! :thumbsup:)

ETA: And she tried to say that the ETA (I assume that's what she meant by ETC) was for "typos etc." WTF. I guess make sure you read the fine print.

[Game Of Thrones]

Give me ANY evidence R+L=/=J.

As I said R+L=J is the forum's equivalent of the theory of evolution.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Jon resembles Arya who resembles Lyanna

Man, I so hate this argument.

The transitive law of equality does not apply to things that are similar. If A is similar to B and B is similar to C, then we know nothing about the relationship between A and C.

For example, I look like my dad. I look like my mom. My mom and dad don't look alike. I look like my dad. My dad looks like my grandpa. I don't look like my grandpa.

Bart looks like Homer. Bart looks like a hedgehog. Homer does not look like a hedgehog. Ice is similar to water. Water is similar to mercury. Ice is not similar to mercury.

I can do this all day.

[Hardtack]

Jon resembles Arya who resembles Lyanna.

You know who else Jon resembles? Ned Stark. So much so that it is mentioned multiple times.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Give me ANY evidence R+L=/=J.

As I said R+L=J is the forum's equivalent of the theory of evolution.

Ned is haunted by the promise and the haunting escalates in KL throughout AGoT.

Yet, Ned's relationship with Jon is static.

[WeaselPie]

The thing you have to understand about WP, is that she's upset that her own theory R+L=/=J theory was so easily refuted. So, rather than regroup and try to understand the story better, she's resorted to lashing out at the R+L=J theory.

Honestly, are you going to take anyone seriously who states that Rhaegar has nothing to do with blue roses? (Which, btw, I see she's edited in her post. Don't worry WP, I saved it for you when I quoted you! :thumbsup:)

ETA: And she tried to say that the ETA (I assume that's what she meant by ETC) was for "typos etc." WTF. I guess make sure you read the fine print.

She? And I'm not the one defending a thousand pages of "proofs" that are nothing but fanfic and Monday morning speculation.

PS, you edit plenty

[Game Of Thrones]

She? And I'm not the one defending a thousand pages of "proofs" that are nothing but fanfic and Monday morning speculation.

How are we supposed to know your gender?

And if R+L=J is so poorly evidenced as you believe, why do you think even most Jon haters or Targ haters believe it?

[J. Stargaryen]

She? And I'm not the one defending a thousand pages of "proofs" that are nothing but fanfic and Monday morning speculation.

I thought you had said you were female.

Yeah, that last sentence is really meaningful coming from the person who claimed that Rhaegar had nothing to do with blue roses, then edited the post and added an ETA to say that the editing was for "typos etc."

[WeaselPie]

How are we supposed to know your gender?

And if R+L=J is so poorly evidenced as you believe, why do you think even most Jon haters or Targ haters believe it?

I have asked for, multiple times, canon proof, including all references, that R+L=J. No one can provide this. If it were canon, we would not be disputing it.

Frankly, I think many people, like me, ran across this board looking for a place to discuss ideas. They see 100 pinned threads and think everyone knows better than they do.

If you asked three people if they think R+L=J, one would say it was too obvious to be true, the second would say "I read all the threads about it!: and the third would be oblivious.

[WeaselPie]

I thought you had said you were female.

Yeah, that last sentence is really meaningful coming from the person who claimed that Rhaegar had nothing to do with blue roses, then edited the post and added an ETA to say that the editing was for "typos etc."

Get over yourself. Double posting is frowned upon, I edited for clarity and typos. Happy now?

Stick to the topic instead of your personal attacks.

[Game Of Thrones]

I have asked for, multiple times, canon proof, including all references, that R+L=J. No one can provide this. If it were canon, we would not be disputing it.

Frankly, I think many people, like me, ran across this board looking for a place to discuss ideas. They see 100 pinned threads and think everyone knows better than they do.

If you asked three people if they think R+L=J, one would say it was too obvious to be true, the second would say "I read all the threads about it!: and the third would be oblivious.

If you want canon proof READ R+L=J v. 98 AND THE ESSAYS LINKED TO IT. It seems rather clear you haven't done so.

And the fact that Renly is gay is also obvious to many. Does this make it false?

[WeaselPie]

If you want canon proof READ R+L=J v. 98 AND THE ESSAYS LINKED TO IT. It seems rather clear you haven't done so.

And the fact that Renly is gay is also obvious to many. Does this make it false?

I already told you I read it. It's still speculation, selective interpretation, and wishful thinking. Cheers.

[Game Of Thrones]

I already told you I read it. It's still speculation, selective interpretation, and wishful thinking. Cheers.

As I said, prove it's "speculation, selective interpretation, and wishful thinking." Pretty hard to debate with you when you say things like this and then don't prove it with evidence.

Also, try arguing in the R+L=J thread.

[stateofdissipation]

1. If the KG did not put up a fight, how did they die? And how did Lord Dustin and the other Northmen die?

2. Rhaegar is confirmed dead, he's not Mance.

3. Ned's fever dream is obviously based on reality.

You really need to decide if you want to use Martin's interviews or text. 1 Clearly refers to the text and ignores GRRM... 2 Clearly refers to GRRM and ignores the text..

1. If the KG did not put up a fight, how did they die? And how did Lord Dustin and the other Northmen die?

Showdown at the tower of joy pages 409-410 aGoT

Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members?

Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that.

http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm

3. Ned's fever dream is obviously based on reality.

"A small cup," Ned said. "my head is still heavy with milk of the poppy."---aGoT page 412.

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

http://www.westeros....he_Tower_of_Joy

[Game Of Thrones]

So how did Lord Dustin die again? Did he fall off the Dornish Marches? Did Howland and Ned kill them all? And how an I ignoring SSMs?

Rhaegar is dead. Do you really think people couldn't recognize him?

The fever dream is BASED on reality, I never said that was exactly what happened there. But it's close.

[WeaselPie]

So how did Lord Dustin die again? Did he fall off the Dornish Marches? Did Howland and Ned kill them all? And how an I ignoring SSMs?

Rhaegar is dead. Do you really think people couldn't recognize him?

The fever dream is BASED on reality, I never said that was exactly what happened there. But it's close.

Even Ran thinks the events Ned dreamed about at the ToJ didn't actually happen at the ToJ....