Anyone else hoping that R+L=/= J?

[sj4iy]

GRRM could make R+L=J true and still punk us by having Jon find out the true and immediately realized how little he actually cares about it because by that point he's already a self-actualized man, thus turning one of the biggest plot points in the series nothing but a but a side note.

In all honesty, I prefer something like that over Jon, after he somehow proves he's legitimate, takes the Targaryan name and goes for the Iron Throne, that's the biggest insult they can do to Jon's character.

I don't see Martin ever doing that. I can see Jon on the IT, but not because of conquest and not because of his name, but because of what he does to save Westeros. I definitely don't see Jon seeking the position, but I can see him taking the position if he felt it was his duty (like he did with being LC).

I don't know if that's what will happen, but that's the way it would make sense. I agree, it would be an insult to his character for him to be all like "WHOO, I'm a Targaryan, the throne is mine!", but Martin would never do that to Jon.

[Julia Martell]

I don't see Martin ever doing that. I can see Jon on the IT, but not because of conquest and not because of his name, but because of what he does to save Westeros. I definitely don't see Jon seeking the position, but I can see him taking the position if he felt it was his duty (like he did with being LC).

I don't know if that's what will happen, but that's the way it would make sense. I agree, it would be an insult to his character for him to be all like "WHOO, I'm a Targaryan, the throne is mine!", but Martin would never do that to Jon.

My pet theory at the moment is that Jon's Ice-and-Fire-ness will allow him to save the world, but no one will ever know it.

And a writer of Martin caliber can take even a Hidden Hero narrative and make it unique and Martin-esque.

[RoamingRonin]

I want it to be true. I want Jon to follow in Ned and Robb's footsteps and defy his trope in typical GRRM fashion.

"There are a lot of expectations, mainly in the fantasy genre, which you have the hero and he is the chosen one, and he is always protected by his destiny. I didnt want it for my books."

So, yes. Let R+L=J be true. Please :lol:.

[BastardlyRock]

My pet theory at the moment is that Jon's Ice-and-Fire-ness will allow him to save the world, but no one will ever know it.

And a writer of Martin caliber can take even a Hidden Hero narrative and make it unique and Martin-esque.

See, my pet theory is that that role (unknown savior) will be filled by Stannis.... while LF will go down in a ridiculously "martyrish" way, earning the love of the people without them ever knowing what chaos and havoc he was responsible for. :devil:

[sj4iy]

My pet theory at the moment is that Jon's Ice-and-Fire-ness will allow him to save the world, but no one will ever know it.

And a writer of Martin caliber can take even a Hidden Hero narrative and make it unique and Martin-esque.

D&D said something that makes me think that Jon will definitely help lead the fight.

“Jon now has a following among the younger brothers of the Watch, and his role as a leader is crucial in setting up the series’ endgame.”

I think he will play a big part.

[Julia Martell]

D&D said something that makes me think that Jon will definitely help lead the fight.

“Jon now has a following among the younger brothers of the Watch, and his role as a leader is crucial in setting up the series’ endgame.”

I think he will play a big part.

Bastard, I don't think sj4iy wants to be in our club. :-)

I agree, and i think just because Jon might likely be the Big Damn Hero at the end, there are a million interesting ways it can play out. Just because it's a trope, doesn't mean it has to be "predictable". And subverting a trope doesn't mean you have to throw it out entirely.

[sj4iy]

I want it to be true. I want Jon to follow in Ned and Robb's footsteps and defy his trope in typical GRRM fashion.

"There are a lot of expectations, mainly in the fantasy genre, which you have the hero and he is the chosen one, and he is always protected by his destiny. I didnt want it for my books."

So, yes. Let R+L=J be true. Please :lol:.

Martin already has, though. Most 'chosen ones' are told at the beginning of their journey who they are, and then the focus of the story rests on them as they go through the trials and tribulations of living up to that title. Martin's already flipped this by Jon not finding out who he is until he's already suffered through those trials and tribulations. He's also not the focus of the story. Most people would say that if there's a chosen one in the story, it would be Dany. So Jon doesn't really fit the stereotypical trope as we know it.

[Cas Stark]

My pet theory at the moment is that Jon's Ice-and-Fire-ness will allow him to save the world, but no one will ever know it.

And a writer of Martin caliber can take even a Hidden Hero narrative and make it unique and Martin-esque.

This is my theory also.

[BastardlyRock]

Bastard, I don't think sj4iy wants to be in our club. :-)

I agree, and i think just because Jon might likely be the Big Damn Hero at the end, there are a million interesting ways it can play out. Just because it's a trope, doesn't mean it has to be "predictable". And subverting a trope doesn't mean you have to throw it out entirely.

:lmao: No, I don't think so either, though I have to respect such staunch support of the show (I mean it sj4iy, I truly respect your tenacity :thumbsup:)

-- And you're exactly right -- just because Martin has (most likely definitely) decided to go with Jon = secret prince, doesn't mean that the reader automagically knows everything that will follow. I have ample faith in his ability to make the reveal unexpected and phenomenally unique, even though we all see it coming. That's the power of GRRM. :D

[RoamingRonin]

Martin already has, though. Most 'chosen ones' are told at the beginning of their journey who they are, and then the focus of the story rests on them as they go through the trials and tribulations of living up to that title. Martin's already flipped this by Jon not finding out who he is until he's already suffered through those trials and tribulations. He's also not the focus of the story. Most people would say that if there's a chosen one in the story, it would be Dany. So Jon doesn't really fit the stereotypical trope as we know it.

Most chosen ones are told at the beginning (Harry Potter, for example) because their story depends on it. Imagine 6 Harry Potter books where he bums around not knowing he's a wizard.

What you misunderstand is that Harry learned about his specialness in book one but not the prophecy until book 5 -- the term "chosen one" wasn't used until book 6. Luke discovered he was a Jedi in the first movie but he didn't learn about Leia or his true father until the second film.

I remember the post that you inspired and I thought the argument was based on faulty reasoning.

[Myraan]

Hello - long time lurker (like eight years maybe) - but first time posting as far as I can remember, so please be nice ;)

I have to admit that I didn't even realize R+L=J was only a theory until I found this website. I always assumed it was one of those things that the reader knows but the POV doesn't. Of course later I realized it was only obvious to me after my second reading; have read series like 4 times not counting audiobooks; my theory during my first reading was that Jon was actually Aegon and that Ned did father a bastard on Ashara Dayne, and that it was the bastard that got killed by the Mountain, which would explain why Ned hates the Lannisters even before he starts playing the Game with them.

I think I recall posts from years back where people who have read the books even more than myself disprove that notion because Jon is too old or too young or whatever. Considering how well I know the books I really ought to know that - but seems I don't. Plus - on my second reading I noticed all the early clues that made me think oh yeah... R+L fits much better than that outlandish idea.

When I found this website I was frankly shocked that people thought the theory might be false - I think all those years ago it wasn't such accepted fact as it is now. And given the reaction of some book readers on the internet to the HBO show "making Renly gay for no reason at all" I guess I shouldn't have been shocked.

In fact in my mind R+L=J is so obvious, I'm almost staring to suspect it might actually a red herring, planned by GRRM from the start to piss off the internet fans he hoped to one day get. I'm pretty sure I remember posting on a wheel of time site in the nineties that Taim is so clearly Demandred it might aswell be canon - but it turned out I was wrong there - so R+L=/=J wouldn't be huge surprise tbh.

I mean if R+L=J is true then Jon may well be the chosen of both R'hollor and The Great Other, making him metaphorically the song of ice and fire. But if it is not true.... well maybe he is actually dead after all.

Incidentally - if it is not true; and the Jon=Aegon idea I had years ago isn't as impossible as I believe it probably is; then does R+L=FAegon? I have long believed the purpose of Gilly was to make geeks like me have crazy baby swap ideas - but maybe it's more plausable that her main purpose was to ride the fat pink mast.

[sj4iy]

Bastard, I don't think sj4iy wants to be in our club. :-)

I agree, and i think just because Jon might likely be the Big Damn Hero at the end, there are a million interesting ways it can play out. Just because it's a trope, doesn't mean it has to be "predictable". And subverting a trope doesn't mean you have to throw it out entirely.

Oh, well. Can't be in every club XD

I actually find it more interesting that Martin is using the tropes and putting twists in them. Jon actually reminds me of a character from Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels, Captain Carrot. It's also a subverted "hidden king" trope, with Carrot deciding to serve the city as a humble watchman instead of take the throne as long as the city works. So I like the way ASoIaF also plays with the trope, changing it around from what we expect.

[The Wolves]

I only care about R+L=J for how it impacts Jon. He deserves to know who his mother/father is, no matter what tho he'll always be Ned Stark's son.

[sj4iy]

Most chosen ones are told at the beginning (Harry Potter, for example) because their story depends on it. Imagine 6 Harry Potter books where he bums around not knowing he's a wizard.

What you misunderstand is that Harry learned about his specialness in book one but not the prophecy until book 5 -- the term "chosen one" wasn't used until book 6. Luke discovered he was a Jedi in the first movie but he didn't learn about Leia or his true father until the second film.

I remember the post that you inspired and I thought the argument was based on faulty reasoning.

It's not faulty reasoning. It was extremely clear that Harry would win out in the end. It was clear that he was talented and had special abilities. He was approached and told "Hey, you're a wizard and you're special!" That's another version of the hidden prince trope. Just because there wasn't a prophecy until book 5 doesn't mean that we, the readers, weren't aware all along that he would be the one to defeat VM in the end.

[sweetsunray]

Martin already has, though. Most 'chosen ones' are told at the beginning of their journey who they are, and then the focus of the story rests on them as they go through the trials and tribulations of living up to that title. Martin's already flipped this by Jon not finding out who he is until he's already suffered through those trials and tribulations. He's also not the focus of the story. Most people would say that if there's a chosen one in the story, it would be Dany. So Jon doesn't really fit the stereotypical trope as we know it.

Although Ted Williams did something similar at the total end of the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series, and exceedingly well imo.

[sj4iy]

Although Ted Williams did something similar at the total end of the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series, and exceedingly well imo.

Agreed. I also mentioned Pratchett in a previous post, as well. Martin's not the first person to subvert the trope by any stretch of the imagination, but he's still making it interesting.

[RoamingRonin]

It's not faulty reasoning. It was extremely clear that Harry would win out in the end. It was clear that he was talented and had special abilities. He was approached and told "Hey, you're a wizard and you're special!" That's another version of the hidden prince trope. Just because there wasn't a prophecy until book 5 doesn't mean that we, the readers, weren't aware all along that he would be the one to defeat VM in the end.

Honestly, the circumstances aren't the same. Harry's story depended on him learning from book one. The same can't be said for Jon.

Is this about when the character learns or when the reader learns cause now you're switching tracks.

ETA: I wouldn't even pin Dany as "the chosen one". That would better fit Bran.

[LordManderlyAsDragonRider]

I still have a little bit of hope that R+L=J isn't true..but only very little! I picked up in the idea in my first re-read so I'm sure lots of people figure it out without the help of the 90+ threads about it.

I usual don't read fantasy, so I think it is just the "secret prince saving the world" thing that is struggle with..but this is fantasy so I should prob just accept there is gonna be some fantasy element in it:-)

[sweetsunray]

Agreed. I also mentioned Pratchett in a previous post, as well. Martin's not the first person to subvert the trope by any stretch of the imagination, but he's still making it interesting.

Love Pratchett, but not sure about the name you mentioned... not your fault. It's actually one of the only series I read in my native language Dutch, because I find the translator gives it even that extra little punch; it's even funnier than Pratchett's writing, weirdly enough. ETA: oh yeah, now I remember the story you mentioned. My favs are the ones revolving around Death's adventures, and the witches.

[sj4iy]

Honestly, the circumstances aren't the same. Harry's story depended on him learning from book one. The same can't be said for Jon.

Is this about when the character learns or when the reader learns cause now you're switching tracks.

I don't understand the point you are trying to make, to be honest. In HP, we, the audience, and Harry, find out who Harry is at the same time. Of course his story depends on when he finds out. If he doesn't find out, then he stays where he is.

Jon's story is also changed dramatically without the knowledge. Had Ned told Jon who he was at the beginning of the story, would Jon have gone to the Wall? Would he have set out to claim his birthright? We'll never know what Jon would have done, but I think it's safe to say that the story ended up being dramatically different because Jon didn't find out who he was. Instead of Jon struggling to live up to his birthright, as we typically see in 'chosen one' stories, we see Jon struggling to prove that birthright doesn't define him...that he can be a leader despite his bastard status, and not a story about him becoming a leader because he's expected to be. While other characters get boons to raise them up in the story, like dragons or being proclaimed Hand of the King, Jon is struggling to figure out what 'honor' really is while he's undercover as a spy. Other characters are making decisions which impact the story profoundly...Jon is making decisions that impact his character.